Being born in the ghetto = "being born into a version of genocide"?

I think you over estimate the benevolence in the intentions of racist Chicago in serving its black poor.

I don’t understand this.

Let me know when a business decides to tackle the problem of the ghetto.

Thats just not true, the Robert Taylor homes were not very much different than any other poor/working class black neighborhood up until the late 80s, early 90s. Shit hit the fan when the Black Kings, and The Sharks took over and started selling crack.

Come on, do you think new schools or a library is going to do anything to change the ghetto? As for police enforcement, there is neither the political will, nor even the ability to effective enforce violent crime in the ghetto. You want them to go around enforcing building codes? Not a chance.

Are you talking about Drug Abuse Resistance Education? No, that won’t work becuase, as I have said before, government officials have a tiny influence compared to that of families and friends.

I wrote what I thought the solution was in post 61.

You only answered part of my question. How about the kids that are doing better in those voucher schools (if they are). I was trying to get a sense of what percent of the community children were 1) graduating HS and 2) going to college prior to voucher schools coming into the picture, and what percent now.

It’s easy to slam the voucher schools for the reasons you have. But I’m wondering about the benefits of them as well. Looking at just one half of the balance sheet doesn’t give an accurate or helpful picture. If there is an upside, we should take that into consideration. If there’s not, we need to know that and act accordingly.

As I said, there just isn’t that data here. However, I do vaguely remember that there was report released of numbers this year, out of New York I think, which had burried in it, numbers which said that kids in voucher schools do the same or worse than they did in public schools. I will see if i can find what the hell I am talking about today.

There are some things that do work. They are also the things which work in non inner city schools.

  1. Smaller class sizes.
    Especialy at lower grade levels, but good at higher levels too. The way I have
    small classes right now, where half the class just isn’t there, doesnt do it.
  2. Clubs and Sports.
    It doesn’t much matter what kind. Drama club, math club, chess club, band,
    orchestra, drum line, Soccer, Tennis, Football. Anything that keeps a kid busy
    active, and is likely to put them in close contact with a functional adult seems
    to work.
  3. Parental involvement.

The problem is that each of these things takes money, and schools are being bled dry, so these things are less and less available. The last is one of the biggest things schools need but is hardest for inner city schools to come by.

I would like to have a rational discussion.

The federal housing plans of the 60s were not conceived by racists. It was a well intentioned idea to deal with urban decay and the plight of the inner cities.

Who are you proposing to fix this? I’m suggesting the people who are most likely to get the job of fixing it are the ones that broke it in the first place.

The federal government has not demonstrated an ability to fix this.

It’s not business’s job. The government has some role, but it needs to be limited to infrastructure, and to stay out of the way. That doesn’t mean necessarily cut spending; it’s spening money where the government has competence, and not in areas where it has no competence or business.

This is simply not true. Are you from Chicago? Have you ever been to Robert Taylor homes, Henry Horner, Stateway Gardens, Cabrini Green or any of the others? I can tell you that even the police didn’t want to go into most of these projects, and the notion that they were the same as any other poor/working class neighborhood until the late 80’s is simply not true. There were gang wars in the CHA housing projects in the 70’s. Mayor Jane Byrne, in a political stunt moved into Cabrini Green in 1980ish. The federal housing plans were never a good idea that suddenly went wrong. They’ve been a blight and a curse to it’s residents for decades.

It’s actually happening. Some communities have embraced the ‘broken windows’ approach to community policing and, while the jury is not entirely in, many communities have seen drops in crime. In my neighborhood they are enforcing building codes and that has caused many people to address houses that are in disrepair.

So, yea I sure do believe that new schools and libraries will help. Scattered site housing, expediated processes that allow the city to take down abandoned buildings, community based policing, enforcement of housing standards, prosecution of real estate scam artists and flippers, good roads and sidewalks, low interest loans and tax abatments to long time home owners and senior citizens, community development corporations, etc etc will all help. We don’t need any more DARE programs. We sure don’t need more Henry Horner homes built.

I agree. Drug rehab programs have mixed results, but are necessary for those with problems with drugs, and obviously some are better than others. Treatment is a better investment that building bigger jails. “DARE” type programs are a complete waste of taxpayer dollars.

Well, I would agree that simply removing the ghettos is an answer.

If you build 4 or 5 thousand units of high density apartments in inelegant concrete, pave over anything green, and then crowd the poorest of the poulation into the development, I guarantee you will have a ghetto in short order. And that’s what the government did.

And I agree that the solution must come from within. The government should give them a fighting chance: Clean schools, good roads, clean streets, aggressive policing of gangs and small crimes—all the things that make up a good neighborhood. Mixed use housing. Tax abatements for developers for income diversity in tenant selection. Scattered site hosing subsidies.

Still there will always be kids who are unloved, ungoverned and out of control; kids who are eating cheese puffs for dinner at 2:00 am while watching The Matrix.
But no community can suffer having all these kids in the same neighborhood or school.

I do recall seeing some statistics that indicate that voucher schools test at levels equal or worse then public schools. I recall instances of the opposite, as well. What would be interesting though is to see the real effects of voucher schools on those that attend them: do they graduate a t higher levels, do they attend college at higher levels. If so, these numbers need to be taken into account.

For instance if a commumnity has 10,000 high school kids and 2,000 of them go to voucher schools, are those 2,000 kids doing better than they would have in the public schools? If those schools are graduating kids at a 90% rate (theoretically) and sending them to college at a 70% rate, while the public school numbers are 50% and 20% respectively, there is a definite "good’ the voucher schools are providing the community over all. At the end of the analysis, if more kids in the community are graduating and going to college, the community is being helped by voucher schools being there. And IF that is the case, that would, IMO, indicate that that the community should have more vooucher schools, not fewer. Again theoretically, even if your analysis is correct and that voucher schools are taking the cream of the crop, if every one that did so scooped of the next 10%, more and more kids would be being helped. Now, granted, there are kids that for a variety of reasons are not going to go to college, and maybe never even graduate. But I think that these are areas of opportunity for voucher schools as well. One thing that would benefit this country is the realization that college is not the answer for everyone and to increase traing (and respect) for the trades. Also, I could see an enterprising person or company opening a vouvher school for kids with learning disabilities, etc.

I don’t know the answers. But I think it is a mistake to condemn voucher schools be looking at the negatives only.

You’re 100% correct: parental involvement is the biggest factor, BY FAR. Smaller class sizes certainly can’t hurt, and I think clubs and sports do much to teach kids important social skills, but they can only do so much. There are schools with larger class sizes—both in the US and abroad—where the kids do extremely well. But the single most imprtant factor in kids doing well in school is parental involvement. I don’t have access to the cites, but some research I did for a HS study product revealed this to be the case. (It is also suported by the Thernstroms’ excellent book: No Excuses. Closing the Racial Gap in Learning. One piece of information that stuck in my mind from my own research concerns Asian students, who, as a group, far out-perform the rest of the population. It was shown that this phenomenon was cultural, that after an Asian family is here for three generations they lose the “advantage”. The become “American” and perform at “American” rates. An interesting observation made by Abigail Thernstrom and her husband during there research is that they found an almost perfect correlation between student achievement and the number of books in the child’s home.

It seems clear the culture is what determines student success. While kids need basics like clean classrooms, well-trained teaachers, and current textbooks, outside forces can only have so much effect. Until poor communities and families begin to value education no substantial changes can be had. One thing I thought was hopeful was when Bill Cosby spoke to the issue (as it applied to the black culture in the inner cities) a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, more people who could have helped the cause were interested in labeling him a racist than jumping on the bandwagon and trying to effect change.

If you want to have a rational discussion then I think you need to acknowledge that 1960s Chicago was racist. Even if the people that concieved of the plan were not racist, they were still limited in what they could do by racism.

It seems like it has to be the government. I don’t see any private organization stepping up.

Stay out of the way of what? The ghetto forming is a natural component of a capatlistic system. Its not as though if it weren’t for government really poor people would be living side by side with engineers and doctors.

No, they haven’t. They weren’t that bad until the gangs took over in the late 80s:

Pg 110 American Project

The point is that its not possible to enforce ‘broken windows’ when you have gangs openly dealing drugs, assaulting people, and commiting murders.

What do you think is going to happen when the city starts closing down buildings that violate the building code? Do you think an owner is going to build a brand new building in the middle of the ghetto? Of course not, he will tear it down and now you have a dozen people homeless, and a new vacant lot where they used to live.

But none of your solutions do anything to get rid of the ghetto. All they do is put a nice face on it.

Yes, there were certainly mistakes made in the design of the homes but it was not an untenable situation. Regardless, thats not what I propose doing in the least bit. I want small, scattered developments of low income housing.

I submit that it is impossible to effectively police a ghetto for even major crimes, let alone petty crimes. Even if you do, all that has happened is that you now have to house, feed and protect a whole lot of people. That is not a desirable solution. Clean schools, good roads, and clean streets do nothing to change the people that live in the ghetto. And, as we both have agreed, its the culture that is the main problem, not something external.

You wouldn’t need to spend a single minute in any of those projects in 1987 to know how ludicrous it is to say that the housing projects were OK until that point. Just driving through them would have been enough. I knew you weren’t from Chicago----or at the very least hadn’t been to any of them. That statement simply doesn’t reflect what those housing projects are/were actually like.

I said they weren’t any different than any other poor neighborhood. I don’t think thats a ringing endorsement of them, nor does it mean that tehy were “OK”.

I understand. I’m saying they weren’t,; they weren’t the same as any other poor neighborhood. They were, and are, some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the United States, long before 1987.

I am from Chicago and was born there. I’ve been to Stateway Gardens several times, and to Cabrini Green many times, as early as 1979. I’ve driven through Robert Taylor and Henry Horner homes many times and I can tell you from experience these developments were had more in common with Beirut than they did a typical poor neighborhood.

the raindog,

I just noticed the compliment you posted earlier and I wanted to say thanks. So, “thanks”.

You’re welcome. :slight_smile:

There are some good voucher schools. Mostly from what we can see they were good schools before the voucher system and would be fine if the vouchers were pulled today. Some kids do well in them, and some don’t. The problem I see with the voucher system is that it tells parents they don’t have to be part of the solution. If their kid isn’t doing well all they need to do is to shop for a new school. This is the middle of the third quarter, I had 6 new students added last week. (The joy of the way this thing is funded is that we won’t get the money for them, their old school does.)

I don’t think is true at all. I see NO reason to believe that parents choosing to send their kids to a voucher school indicates that they are prone to washing their hands of the responsibility. In fact, I’d wager that the reality is quite the opposite. After all, these parents are at least engaged enough to 1) notice a problem and 2) do something about it. I think a more valid argument (which I think you mentioned before) is that is strips public schools of the most education-interested parents. That, I think, belongs in the negative column. But one still needs to consider the pros of voucher schools, which you seem not inclined to do. That is fine, but your argument suffers for it.

I guess I don’t see what arguements I should consider. The numbers that we have say that kids who go to these voucher schools do no better or worse than they do in public school.

As implemented here, it costs the taxpayer more money than regular public education, but there is no political will to give more money to education, so they starve the public schools. Without totaly dismantling the system, most kids are still left behind.

As implemented here, there is no accountablity. They are not required to have an education plan, and they are not required to do the testing. They are not required to have trained teachers, or meet any of the standards set by the State or the Federal government that the public school does. They are not even required to tell the public how they spend the money. I think the idea was to give them more flexablity to find answers, but it has meant every crackpot with a scheme or scoundrel with an itch to buy his wife a new Lincoln, has come out of the woodwork to start a school. Many fold in the first year, but if they can convince 50 desperate parents to come with them, they all feed at the public tit.

I think there might be room for the voucher system, but when it was implemented here, there was an assumption that automaticaly public schools=bad and private schools =good, with no critical thinking behind it. I think when you give away tax dollars, there should be strings attatched. The public has a right to know where their money is spent. At the moment, it is a buzzword that is destroying the other schools. Then again, I think that is the intent.

Are there some kids who do better in this system?
Of course there are.

Will your kid do better?
It is possible.

I think thats irrelevent to his point. His point, as I read it, was that people who send their kids to those schools are at least engaged; they are trying, they are willing to try different tactics/strategies. Whether those tactics/strategies ultimately are effective is a different subject. His point seems to me to have been that, well, at least they are trying.

Well, I share many of the experiences of Blake, and I can somewhat understand what he is saying. I was also raised in a dirt poor environment and worked my way out, though I didnt go to university, Im self taught. Until I was 30 the most I made in one year was 23k; until I was 25 the most I had made was 17k (for perspective this was mid 80s/early 90s). I did way better than average during my 30s, and now recently Im fortunate in that I dont have to keep track anymore.

To generalize, I can certainly agree that wealthy people have no clue; I can also agree that a great deal of poverty is due to various structural issues (i.e many things are rigged) and I can also agree that much poverty is the ‘fault’ of the poor (if one takes the view that poverty is some sort of fault - a view I disagree with). Ive also noticed that the attitudes of ‘the poor/blue collar/working class’ are far different in the east of the US than the west. Im from the west, so thats all I can talk about. I would say that, in general, the attitudes on the east coast are far more class (as in group) oriented as opposed to individually oriented, though as in all generalizations there are certainly exceptions.

But I dont know if I can agree with Blake in his assertion that a great deal is due to the poor simply not knowing what their options are. Im willing to admit its certainly possible, perhaps especially in an inner-city context; my roots are in rural poverty.

In my experience, from Washington to Oregon to Cal, its not a matter of not knowing what your options are but in having too much self respect to use them. There is a far far greater stigma attached to being on welfare amongst the poor than amongst the wealthy. I know the general attitude amongst all the drunks, dope smokers, drop outs, cooks, waitresses, cleaning ladies, delivery drivers etc that I grew up with was that, yeah they knew about govt programs for this and that, but no fucking way were they going to take handouts. Here in the west, in most places (but not all) that also translates into hating unions; I mean, if youre competent and not an idiot, why do you need to be protected from competition (and thus demonstrate that youre incompetent)? Plus, since a great deal of the ‘rigging’ occurs at the local level, and is done by/on behalf of unions, many poor in the west want no part of unions; its like joining the Oppressor or something. Union jobs are not things that are earned, they are things that are given out in exchange for favors or based on who you know; just as bad as having your mommy and daddy buy you a job/degree.

What many wealthy people dont seem to understand is that the wealthy, most especially the children of the wealthy, are looked down upon by a great many of ‘The Poor’. If your mommy and daddy paid for your college education, it doesnt make people envious of you; it makes people dericive of you. It means we’ll never know if you really earned your position, or bought it. You might be taking up space better occupied by someone who actually earned it, but instead ~youre~ there. When you start out with nothing and a few years later have a good job, say, delivering parts or some such, you ~earned it~, and so the perception is that you are head and shoulders above some rich kid whos mommy and daddy bought them a degree. Income level has nothing to do with it.

This is, I think, similar to what people here have mentioned about a successful black person perceived as becoming ‘white’ or something; what perhaps many poor black people are unaware of is that the same general attitude is held widely by poor whites as well, though more likely to be expressed as ‘Im not going to be some fucking yuppie’. Its an attitude that, while often short sighted, I not only understand but agree with.

Which leads to another category of ‘poor people’; those who actually buy into the bullshit that people with degrees and/or money are somehow better than others, or are on some pedestal that others should aspire to be on, or know some deep mystical secret as to How Things Should Be. They might work their way up to manager or something, and all of a sudden start dressing differently, speaking in a different dialect even when among friends, listening to music that they always claimed to hate before simply because people in that bracket listen to that type of music; they buy things that they perceive will make others have more respect for them, etc. In short, they succumb to superficiality; they allow their self confidence to be sapped to such a degree that they no longer have any self respect, and rather than persist in being themselves, they try to ape what they perceive to be ‘better’ people. They are no longer real; they gave up. White people call this White Trash Done Good (among other things); from what I can tell black people call it Oreos or similar names. Truth be told, it is people like this that many poor people perceive as representing ‘successful’ people, and of course if being successful means selling yourself out, then success aint worth it. Its people in this category more than any other that give a very bad name to ‘success’. I mean, who wants to grow up to be like an asshole?

As to ‘programs’ to help the poor; well at least where I grew up, these, like welfare, are seen as handouts at the least, payoffs at worst. Yes, the cost of education is high; the answer isnt to compensate people for the cost, the answer is to address the reasons the costs are so high. If the cost is so high in relation to everything else, and continues to rise at a far higher rate than everything else, that means that somewhere along the line, things are rigged. So rather than buying someone off by compensating them for the system being rigged, why not just try to identify where and how they are being rigged and remove it so the cost will decrease and more people can afford to pay for it themselves and keep their dignity? Christ, look at the food court on any major campus. Its fucking disgusting. Campuses are rife with waste and unnecessary and superficial costs and expenses; can anyone say with a straight face that the cost of an education is not way out of proportion than to what it really needs to be? What, someone who comes from a dirt poor environment is supposed to accept some handout, walk into a campus food court, see mountains of all kinds of food, and eat it happily when they know that back home all that food could feed the entire block for a fucking month?? Do you know what kind of guilt trip that lays on people? Surrounded by primarily sons and daughters of rich people stuffing their squeeky clean shiny faces while bitching because the eggs have a bit too much salt? Anyone with any self respect takes a look around and walks the hell right back out the door.

No, no one is being born into a version of genocide. What people are born into is a whole series of little monopolies, whether its a monopoly on labor by unions, monopoly on employment by The Only Factory in Town, a monopoly on education facilitated by things like due diligence laws, a monopoly on housing (Homeowners Assocations anyone?), a monopoly on democracy (No Walmart Here!), etc etc etc. That is The System; its not some organized conspiracy, its just a patchwork of la la land Things Should Be This Way bullshit and/or artificial restrictions on economic opportunity designed for no better reason than to protect those with jobs from competition from those who dont have one. Theyre born into a poker game where the deck is stacked and no one explains exactly how to cheat or that you even need to, so its no damn wonder that after a few hands many many people just throw the damn cards in the air, leave the table and refuse to play the game anymore.

While that is the point he seems to be making, the response to that is that vouchers (as they have so far been implemented) would appear to be a way to spend more tax money on individual children whose parents are involved while denying those funds to children whose parents happen to be either uncaring or clueless regarding involvement with their kids’ education.

That, in itself, does not make vouchers wrong, but, as magellan01, himself, keeps insisting, we need to look at all aspects of the equation and that is part.

Your post comes across as someone who has a serious chip on their shoulder.

Is the game rigged? You bet it is. It is rigged left, right, up, down, forwards and backwards. Everyone is scrambling for a piece of the pie, everyone defends their hole in the ground like a badger, everyone is looking for the angle that will improve their lot. It would be nice if everyone was excellent to each other and altruism ruled the day but alas that is not the case anywhere on the planet I am aware of.

Sadly it is the only game in town and putting on airs and stating you are somehow above it all is little more than patting yourself on the back for nothing and certainly does nothing to change the situation you complain so bitterly about. Want to change the game? Then you have to play the game and hope the deal comes to you.

I do not see how a poor person accepting financial aid to attend college needs to feel it is a handout or a payoff or whatever. Yes college tuitions are out of hand and it would be nice to see them pulled into line somehow but no matter how reasonable the price becomes there will always be those who find it unaffordable. If you bust your ass and earn a scholarship take it. Take the financial aid too if you can. At the end of it all, if you feel badly for accepting these handouts then pay it back. Pay the university or donate money to some charity or start your own to improve what you feel the problems are in the system. The point is by playing the game you stand a better chance to be in a position to change the game for the better. Walk away from it all because you have too much pride the best you can do is stand on a street corner and rant.

As for the middle class or rich not having earned their way into school or a job is bullshit. Yes the middle-class/rich kids have a far better chance of making it to college and a good job than the poor do but not by virtue of it just being given to them. Most kids in college earned their position by studying and getting good enough grades to get a spot. Only some very few may be able to say mommy and daddy bought their way in (I always wondered if George W. Bush actually merited a spot in Yale and Harvard or if he was Joe Sixpack would have found himself in Texas State). Same goes for jobs. I WISH I had a family that could just guarantee me a job. But, like most people, I got my job based on ability and I keep my job by doing it well. My employer pays me and they have ZERO tolerance for fuck-ups and will put me on the street in a heartbeat if I do not pull my weight. I guarantee mommy and daddy will have nothing to say about any of it. Again you need to be the George W. Bush’s of the world who can manage to screw-up everything they touch and be bailed out at every turn and allowed to screw-up again. Fortunately such people are rare. Most of us work for a living and work rather hard.