Being brainwashed into a belief is not a good reason to hold said belief.

Great Debates
421

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Maybe you joined in a little late, but I’ve already shown Cosmo where his beliefs directly violate what Christ taught. Despite how pleasant his invitation appeared, it was an insult for him to come back with such a proposition - akin to asking me to consider that black is white and white is black and if not, to at least open my mind to the possibility that gray is white. Cosmo admits that his (confusing) belief system is based on following a spirit which allows him to set aside God’s Word whenever it’s convenient, I simply identified what that spirit was. His claim that the Holy Spirit leads him to set aside God’s Word is not only a lie but meets the textbook definition of blasphemy. By the way, discernment of spirits is a gift of the Spirit of God (see 1Cor12:10) and yes, I do claim that I made the statement by His influence.
(And I haven’t been called a dude since I ordered that sasparilla in Houston)
[/QUOTE]
Oh, I’ve been following along. Enough to have some idea what you have and have not “shown”, anyway.

1Cor12 specifically says that not every person has every spiritual gift; in fact it very strongly implies that different christians have all sorts of different spiritual gifts.

This means that you very easily might not have the gift of discernment of spirits. You may instead have the gift of faith (1Cor12:9), or perhaps you merely have the gift of being cabable of saying “Jesus is Lord”, which is the ONLY gift of the Holy Spirit that 1Cor12 says all christians are granted.

So. From teh scripture you cited we know the Holy Spirit is supporting you when you swear allegience to Christ, but neither we nor you have any way of telling whether you actually have the gift of discerning spirits, or whether Murray is merely telling you that you have the gift of discerning spirits.

So, I repeat, unless you can prove that the ‘spirit’ which influences you is the Holy Spirit, and not Murray or some other spirit or your own inner child claiming to be the holy spirit and/or Jesus, you really have not a leg to stand on citing she/he/it as a source of information about other people’s spiritual experience. S/H/It might not be as reliable a source of information as you think it is, after all.

(I’m reasonably confident that no such proof is even theoretically possible. You simply cannot see the man behind the curtain, and even if you think you have, you cannot be certain that the man you saw was not merely a puppet controlled by another man behind another curtain.)

(And, Dude, I don’t know if you’re honestly startled to be called ‘Dude’ or if you’re merely trying to discredit me by implying that I’m, like, a surfer or something. I’ll just make the general comment that it like totally doesn’t matter what I sound like, Dude, it’s my like totally bodacious arguments that you want to be targeting, not me. Ad hominem is like a totally gnarly approach, and not the good gnarly either.)

422

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Absolutely not. The processes are so sophisticated that they could never occur no matter how much time and chance are postulated. They are not only highly complex but must even take place in a certain order to be successful. The exponent needed to reflect the odds of these processes coming together by chance would correspond to the number of molecules in the universe, it’s statistically impossible without a design and a designer.
[/QUOTE]

How did the designer come into being? Isn’t that equally improbably, if not more so?

423

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
More correctly, you stated ** my beliefs contradict what Christ taught but were unable to actually show me**.
[/QUOTE]

There are many, but I’ll reiterate the scripture which directly contradicts your belief system, and since it’s from a passage you yourself quoted, you must at least believe this portion of the Bible to be true ie Matthew15:6, “For the sake of your tradition, you have set aside the Word of God” In this passage Jesus is making a direct reference to the written Word in Ex20:12, Deut5:16, Lev20:9 and Ex21:17 concerning the Pharisees breaking of God’s commandments. By doing so, He directly endorsed the written Word as being the Word of God, which you deny. Jesus Christ, of course, is the Word of God which came in human, not written form (Jn1:1, Jn1:14).

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I admit that my interpretation is pretty different than yours. My claim is that the Holy Spirit IS God’s word and we are to follow it’s lead. I further claim that The Bible, while valuable, is a book written by men and then altered by other men.
[/QUOTE]

Your claim that the Holy Spirit is the Word is contradictory to the Scriptures and also denies the Trinity. Consider Jesus’ statement to the disciples showing their separateness in John16:7, “I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say, it is profitable for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I go away, I will send Him to you to be in close fellowship with you.” There are many such examples which clearly reveal the separate Persons of the Godhead such as Luke3:22, in which the Father spoke from heaven, the Spirit descended from heaven as a dove, and entered into Christ as He was baptized.
Further, the Holy Spirit will never lead someone to violate the written Word because He’s the One Who inspired it (see 2Pet1:21, 2Tim3:1). He will always uphold it, for example Jn15:26, “But when the Comforter comes Whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth Who comes from the Father. He will testify regarding Me.” But in your beliefs, the spirit you have received tells you that the Word shouldn’t be trusted, believed and obeyed. This is contrary to Christ’s teachings (Matt7:24,Matt24:35, Jn17:17, Jn8:51, Luke8:21,Luke11:28,Jn5:39, Matt4:4, Mark13:31, Jn10:35, Matt13:52) as well as the apostles teachings (2Tim2:15,1Pet1:25,1Jn2:5,James1:21,Rom10:17, Acts6:2, 2Tim3:1,Acts17:11). Christ and the apostles all agree and testify that the Writings we possess are indeed God’s Word and should be trusted and obeyed. If the spirit that guides you is speaking something different, it is a lie and it does not proceed from the Holy Spirit.

424

[QUOTE=John Mace]
How did the designer come into being? Isn’t that equally improbably, if not more so?
[/QUOTE]

To save time, let’s cut to the end of this discussion.

“It’s turtles all the way down.” :smiley:

425

[QUOTE=Voyager]
You’re making the common mistake of thinking that evolution is random. It is not. Here’s an analogy that I like (and which I invented.)
Say you have an incredibly complex lock, consisting of 1,000 individual dials of ten digits each. To open the lock you need to get the right number set for each of these 1,000 dials. Even worse, they must be set in order. Obviously this lock, which has 10**1000 possibilities (an exponent - deal with it :slight_smile: ) is impossible to open, right? Just like a cell can’t evolve.
But I forgot to tell you one thing. Each time you set each of the dials to the right number, it clicks. Now the lock is trivial to open - though it takes a while. You try all the possibilities for each dial, listening for the click, and then move on to the next.Evolution is like my lock. You don’t go directly from molecules to man, you go through vastly many intermediate stages. For each, many possibilities are tried until the one that leads to the most reproductive success is found - which is like the click on my lock. You go from there to the next stage.My analogy has one flaw - it assume that evolution has a goal - opening the lock. Evolution does not - there are many species that could arise - and have. Perhaps a better analogy would be that each stage has two clicks. In this case, there are many, many combinations that open the lock, and it would take a very long time to explore them all. But you’ll still get the lock opened.
[/QUOTE]

The analogy is perfect except for the missing ingredient that has to be there to make it all happen: someone must oversee the turning of the dials, in some cases decide which order to turn them in, listen for the clicks, make sure the correctly set dials aren’t turned again, etc. Turns and clicks and good results don’t happen except by design.

426

[QUOTE=Bible man]
The analogy is perfect except for the missing ingredient that has to be there to make it all happen: someone must oversee the turning of the dials, in some cases decide which order to turn them in, listen for the clicks, make sure the correctly set dials aren’t turned again, etc. Turns and clicks and good results don’t happen except by design.
[/QUOTE]

Then, as many have already pointed out, who designed God? God, as you define it, would seem to be infinitely more complex than any organism on Earth. Why is there no need for a designer in His case? If no designer is necessary for God, no designer is necessary for the universe, logically.

427

[QUOTE=Bible man]
There are many, but I’ll reiterate the scripture which directly contradicts your belief system, and since it’s from a passage you yourself quoted, you must at least believe this portion of the Bible to be true ie Matthew15:6, “For the sake of your tradition, you have set aside the Word of God” In this passage Jesus is making a direct reference to the written Word in Ex20:12, Deut5:16, Lev20:9 and Ex21:17 concerning the Pharisees breaking of God’s commandments. By doing so, He directly endorsed the written Word as being the Word of God, which you deny. Jesus Christ, of course, is the Word of God which came in human, not written form (Jn1:1, Jn1:14).
[/QUOTE]

Yes you mentioned this before. I acknowledge that Jesus is referring to the OT scriptures. This in itself does not support your beliefs about the nature of inspiration and the inerrant quality of scripture.
In fact in this case he was critisizing them for using the scripture incorrectly. They were using the letter of the law to judge others rather than understanding the spirit behind it.

Jesus says I and my father are one. Does that deny the trinity? Please.
Let’s look at a couple of more examples.

Luke 3:2
“during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.”
is this scripture, Jesus, or spirit that moved John the Baptist.
1 Thessalonians 2:13
“And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”

does this sound like the spirit intended to guide us into all truth?
Hebrews 4:12
“For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
once again, the living indwelling spirit.
1 Peter 1: 22"Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
when reading this passage in Peter keep Jesus words in mind.
John 3: 5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Then read the parable of the seed in Mat 13, Mark 4, and luke 8 in which Jesus says Luke 8:11
“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.”

now try to tell me thinking of the spirit as the word of God is blasphemy.

Neither of those passages support your belief about the inerrant nature of inspiration or scripture. In fact they are not refering to the NT at all since in didn’t exist.

Incorrect. I agree with the scripture you’ve quoted. I think your interpretation is wrong. The word as spirit is to be trusted and followed as a loving guide.

And here we see a major portion of the problem. Out of the 19 passages you mention only a few{less than half} actually refer to the written word and mention the scriptures. It’s a mistake often repeated by Bible literalists.
What if we read the others while considering the living indwelling guiding spirit as the word?
romans 10:17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
james 1:21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
Mat 4:4Jesus answered, "It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’
Luke 11:28He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
1 john 2:5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1 Tim 2:15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

seeing the word in these passages as the indwelling spirit reveals a truer picture of what Christ taught. As I said, I can support my beliefs with scripture. You still have yet to do so.

428

[QUOTE=Bible man]
The analogy is perfect except for the missing ingredient that has to be there to make it all happen: someone must oversee the turning of the dials, in some cases decide which order to turn them in, listen for the clicks, make sure the correctly set dials aren’t turned again, etc. Turns and clicks and good results don’t happen except by design.
[/QUOTE]

You’re missing the point. You claimed that a cell was extremely improbable - I showed that given intermediate stages, just like in evolution, extremely improbable things become simple. In any case, given a lego robot set with a microphone, I could code up a robot to open this lock in no time. No intelligence is required at all. The algorithm is

for x = 0 to 9
{

429

[QUOTE=Bible man]
The analogy is perfect except for the missing ingredient that has to be there to make it all happen: someone must oversee the turning of the dials, in some cases decide which order to turn them in, listen for the clicks, make sure the correctly set dials aren’t turned again, etc. Turns and clicks and good results don’t happen except by design.
[/QUOTE]
Every living creature is a lock; Every birth spins turns the dials. For sexual births, half the dials are set to each parent; for asexual births, the dials are mostly copied from the parent. For all births, an additional few dials are spun.

Note also that a lock is ‘successful’ if it gets around to reproducing and making more little baby locks. Sometimes enough of the dials don’t click (or the wrong dials don’t click) and it dies. Sometimes it dies anyway by chance. Sometimes enough of the right dials click that it’s less likely to die than the other locks around. Regardless, if it lives long enough to reproduce, the locks keep spinning, and the process continues.

Given that locks are caused to spin by the action of a parent lock reproducing, one might ask, why did the first locks spin? And where did the first locks come from? (And while we’re at it, where did all these turtles come from?) Evolution’s answer to this is I don’t know and I don’t care. Evolution only cares about how locks change from one generation to the next. I forget for what the separate term for the separate question about the initial genesis of locks, er, life is, but that is indeed a separate question. And don’t ever let anybody tell you otherwise.

I’m less up on the theories about the autogenesis of locks. Sombody else will have to cover that.

(If there are any obvious problems with my analogy, o scientists, feel free to correct/improve/laugh. I haven’t studied this stuff in as much depth as I might have.)

430

[QUOTE=Bible man]
The analogy is perfect except for the missing ingredient that has to be there to make it all happen: someone must oversee the turning of the dials, in some cases decide which order to turn them in, listen for the clicks, make sure the correctly set dials aren’t turned again, etc. Turns and clicks and good results don’t happen except by design.
[/QUOTE]

You’re missing the point. You claimed that a cell was extremely improbable - I showed that given intermediate stages, just like in evolution, extremely improbable things become simple. In any case, given a lego robot set with a microphone, I could code up a robot to open this lock in no time. No intelligence is required at all. The algorithm is
for lock = 1 to 1000
for x = 0 to 9
{
turn dial to x
if click next lock
}
}
Nothing to it.

There is one thing I didn’t make clear enough. The chance that we as humans would evolve is very small. But the chance of getting a particular bridge hand is very small also. The chance that something will evolve is near certainty, just as the chance you get some bridge hand is 1. I don’t know if the chance that intelligent life will evolve is close to 1 or not.

Do you think your makeup was inevitable, or do you accept that a wide variety of circumstances could have caused another sperm to win, or even another egg? I’m just saying that the human race is accidental in exactly the same way.

431

Abiogenesis.

432

[QUOTE=begbert2]
1Cor12 specifically says that not every person has every spiritual gift; in fact it very strongly implies that different christians have all sorts of different spiritual gifts. This means that you very easily might not have the gift of discernment of spirits …you really have not a leg to stand on citing she/he/it as a source of information about other people’s spiritual experience. S/H/It might not be as reliable a source of information as you think it is, after all.
[/QUOTE]

Spiritual experiences and utterances are mainly judged by the what the Holy Spirit has already spoken ie, the Word of God. That which contradicts them are rejected (see Isaiah8:20 “If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them”). Studying the Bible is the first line of defense for a person to avoid error (see Acts17:11, …with inclination of mind and eagerness; searching and examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.)

[QUOTE=begbert2]
(And, Dude, I don’t know if you’re honestly startled to be called ‘Dude’ or if you’re merely trying to discredit me by implying that I’m, like, a surfer or something. I’ll just make the general comment that it like totally doesn’t matter what I sound like, Dude, it’s my like totally bodacious arguments that you want to be targeting, not me. Ad hominem is like a totally gnarly approach, and not the good gnarly either.)
[/QUOTE]

One thing is for certain, I don’t seem to have the gift of interpretation of tongues. I’ll have to wait for this to be translated for me by perhaps a neighborhood teenager that might become available. That fellow in Houston is pushing up daisies right now, but so far your use of the term seems different than that sarsaparilla incident, pardner.

433

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Yes you mentioned this before. I acknowledge that Jesus is referring to the OT scriptures. This in itself does not support your beliefs about the nature of inspiration and the inerrant quality of scripture.
[/QUOTE]

Inerancy of the Word is found within the concept of Truth, for example in Jn17:17 Jesus prays, “Sanctify them by the Truth, Your Word is Truth”. Nothing which has error can be the Truth. Further, the original communcations from God are inerrant even though there are many ways that the Word, and therefore the Truth, can be perverted in the hands of mankind. Some errors are minor and innocent as in copiest and translation errors, but major problems occur from misinterpretations (heresy). These errors have nothing to do with the accuracy and Truth of the Scriptures, but from the imperfections of human beings and the tendency towards evil of the human heart (see 2Pet3:16, Gal5:17-21).

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
In fact in this case he was critisizing them for using the scripture incorrectly. They were using the letter of the law to judge others rather than understanding the spirit behind it.
[/QUOTE]

No, in this case it was a problem of greed - they had set aside God’s commandments about caring for their parent’s financial needs while using some man-made traditions to justify their selfishness and disobedience.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Jesus says I and my father are one.
[/QUOTE]

And in the same way, the Word and the Spirit are also one, but they are not the same Person. You have been saying that the Spirit is the Word, that’s a doctrinal error.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Let’s look at a couple of more examples.
Luke 3:2 "during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert."is this scripture, Jesus, or spirit that moved John the Baptist.
[/QUOTE]

It is the Holy Spirit moving on John to speak the Word. The Word indeed proceeds from the Spirit, but the Spirit is not the Word - the Word is a product of the Spirit. This is just as 1Pet1:21(amplified) states, “For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it - it never came by human impulse - but as men spoke from God who were borne along by the Holy Spirit”. As these men deliver the message of the Holy Spirit to others and it is written down, it then becomes Scripture (the Word of God).

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]

1 Thessalonians 2:13 “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”
[/QUOTE]
This is a case in which the Thessalonians had not yet received the message of the gospel of Christ in written form and were hearing it from Paul for the first time as he was led by the Holy Spirit to deliver it to them. Just as He does when the Word is delivered in written form, the Holy Spirit worked in the hearts of the Thessalonians to testify that the spoken Words were His and were to be trusted, believed, and obeyed.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
does this sound like the spirit intended to guide us into all truth? Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” once again, the living indwelling spirit.
[/QUOTE]

This verse illustrates the Holy Spirit’s activity within the human heart using the agency of the Word. This relationship is brought out perhaps even more clearly in Eph6:17, “And take the helmet of salvation and the sword the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.” They have a close working relationship but they are not the same.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
1 Peter 1: 22"Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."
[/QUOTE]

Once again, this scripture does not show that they are the same but shows the working relationship between the Word and the Spirit. Here it is seen that being born again is a product of the Holy Spirit’s operation in the human heart through the agency of the Word ie, He applies the Word to a person’s heart and if they respond, they are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
now try to tell me thinking of the spirit as the word of God is blasphemy.
[/QUOTE]

Thinking that the Spirit is the Word of God is just a doctrinal error. But your claim that the Holy Spirit is telling you to reject and set aside the Scriptures is blasphemy because He would never do such a thing. Just as all the scriptures quoted above have verified, the Holy Spirit inspires, endorses, applies, and explains the scriptures to people - He never sets them aside and neither does He endorse any doctrines which are contrary to the Scriptures. Your continuous claim that He does so puts you at great risk (see Matt12:31)

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Neither of those passages support your belief about the inerrant nature of inspiration or scripture. In fact they are not refering to the NT at all since in didn’t exist.
[/QUOTE]

Inerancy was already covered above ie, the Word, being the Truth, must be inerrant by definition otherwise it can’t be the Truth. As far as NT inspiration, consider Paul’s statement in 1Cor2:13, “And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Holy Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language.” and Peter also equates the teachings of Paul with Scripture in 2Pet3:16 (amplified), “There are some things in those epistles of Paul that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and misinterpret the rest of the Scriptures” The New Testament books are considered to be as equally inspired as the Old, otherwise they wouldn’t have been included in the Bible.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Incorrect. I agree with the scripture you’ve quoted. I think your interpretation is wrong. The word as spirit is to be trusted and followed as a loving guide.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll state it again, if the spirit guiding you is telling you to disregard any of the Scriptures or add something contrary to them, it is not the Holy Spirit.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
And here we see a major portion of the problem. Out of the 19 passages you mention only a few{less than half} actually refer to the written word and mention the scriptures. It’s a mistake often repeated by Bible literalists. What if we read the others while considering the living indwelling guiding spirit as the word? romans 10:17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
[/QUOTE]

If you would allow me to paraphrase this verse to better illustrate the already mentioned relationship between the Word and the Spirit, it would be better understood this way: “Faith comes by hearing the Holy Spirit speak, and the ability to hear Him speak comes through the agency of the Word of God” In other words, faith results after receiving the Scriptures and hearing His voice by them.

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
james 1:21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
[/QUOTE]
Again, this and all the other verses you listed only illustrate that the Word is implanted and nourished through the agency of the Holy Spirit, not that the Word is the Spirit.

434

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Inerancy of the Word is found within the concept of Truth, for example in Jn17:17 Jesus prays, “Sanctify them by the Truth, Your Word is Truth”. Nothing which has error can be the Truth. Further, the original communcations from God are inerrant even though there are many ways that the Word, and therefore the Truth, can be perverted in the hands of mankind. Some errors are minor and innocent as in copiest and translation errors, but major problems occur from misinterpretations (heresy). These errors have nothing to do with the accuracy and Truth of the Scriptures, but from the imperfections of human beings and the tendency towards evil of the human heart (see 2Pet3:16, Gal5:17-21).

No, in this case it was a problem of greed - they had set aside God’s commandments about caring for their parent’s financial needs while using some man-made traditions to justify their selfishness and disobedience.

And in the same way, the Word and the Spirit are also one, but they are not the same Person. You have been saying that the Spirit is the Word, that’s a doctrinal error.
It is the Holy Spirit moving on John to speak the Word. The Word indeed proceeds from the Spirit, but the Spirit is not the Word - the Word is a product of the Spirit. This is just as 1Pet1:21(amplified) states, “For no prophecy ever originated because some man willed it - it never came by human impulse - but as men spoke from God who were borne along by the Holy Spirit”. As these men deliver the message of the Holy Spirit to others and it is written down, it then becomes Scripture (the Word of God).

This is a case in which the Thessalonians had not yet received the message of the gospel of Christ in written form and were hearing it from Paul for the first time as he was led by the Holy Spirit to deliver it to them. Just as He does when the Word is delivered in written form, the Holy Spirit worked in the hearts of the Thessalonians to testify that the spoken Words were His and were to be trusted, believed, and obeyed.
This verse illustrates the Holy Spirit’s activity within the human heart using the agency of the Word. This relationship is brought out perhaps even more clearly in Eph6:17, “And take the helmet of salvation and the sword the Spirit wields, which is the Word of God.” They have a close working relationship but they are not the same.
Once again, this scripture does not show that they are the same but shows the working relationship between the Word and the Spirit. Here it is seen that being born again is a product of the Holy Spirit’s operation in the human heart through the agency of the Word ie, He applies the Word to a person’s heart and if they respond, they are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Thinking that the Spirit is the Word of God is just a doctrinal error. But your claim that the Holy Spirit is telling you to reject and set aside the Scriptures is blasphemy because He would never do such a thing. Just as all the scriptures quoted above have verified, the Holy Spirit inspires, endorses, applies, and explains the scriptures to people - He never sets them aside and neither does He endorse any doctrines which are contrary to the Scriptures. Your continuous claim that He does so puts you at great risk (see Matt12:31)
Inerancy was already covered above ie, the Word, being the Truth, must be inerrant by definition otherwise it can’t be the Truth. As far as NT inspiration, consider Paul’s statement in 1Cor2:13, “And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Holy Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language.” and Peter also equates the teachings of Paul with Scripture in 2Pet3:16 (amplified), “There are some things in those epistles of Paul that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as they distort and misinterpret the rest of the Scriptures” The New Testament books are considered to be as equally inspired as the Old, otherwise they wouldn’t have been included in the Bible.
I’ll state it again, if the spirit guiding you is telling you to disregard any of the Scriptures or add something contrary to them, it is not the Holy Spirit.

If you would allow me to paraphrase this verse to better illustrate the already mentioned relationship between the Word and the Spirit, it would be better understood this way: “Faith comes by hearing the Holy Spirit speak, and the ability to hear Him speak comes through the agency of the Word of God” In other words, faith results after receiving the Scriptures and hearing His voice by them.
Again, this and all the other verses you listed only illustrate that the Word is implanted and nourished through the agency of the Holy Spirit, not that the Word is the Spirit.
[/QUOTE]

You are well named Bible Man, but if you think about it God didn’t say anything, but some human said God said these things, unless you believe that God exists in every thing and is not a separate being. Jesus said, when accused of blasphmey," why do you say I blaspheme because I call God my father, when your fathers did"? Refering to the 82d or 81st Psalm (depending on what version of the bible) you accept.

Monavis

435

[QUOTE=monavis]
You are well named Bible Man, but if you think about it God didn’t say anything, but some human said God said these things, unless you believe that God exists in every thing and is not a separate being. Jesus said, when accused of blasphmey," why do you say I blaspheme because I call God my father, when your fathers did"? Refering to the 82d or 81st Psalm (depending on what version of the bible) you accept.Monavis
[/QUOTE]

It all goes back to the original question asked in the garden, “Hath God said?” You will note that Satan’s question to Eve was based on the fact that she had not yet been formed when Adam received God’s command not to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She was relying on Adam’s testimony to her about what God had said. Later in the conversation Satan went further and claimed the opposite to what God had spoken ie, “you will not surely die”. Satan hasn’t changed since the beginning, he puts questions in people’s minds about those who bear personal testimony about God and then offers them lies as alternatives. In this regard, since there are so many voices and opinions and paths in the market place, the testimonies which begin with “Thus says the Lord…” should be given the greater consideration because the speaker claims to be speaking in God’s stead. Psalm 82 stating, “I said you are gods” illustrates this higher level of communication - as these people were speaking and acting directly at the promptings of the Holy Spirit, they become as God Himself. Conversely, those who claim they are speaking for God when He is not truly the one influencing them are commiting blasphemy ie, misrepresenting God.

436

[QUOTE=Bible man]
It all goes back to the original question asked in the garden, “Hath God said?” You will note that Satan’s question to Eve […]
[/QUOTE]

And you will, in turn, note that Satan never appears in that story. Are you… changing the words of the bible?

Is that blasphemy? :eek:

437

[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
And you will, in turn, note that Satan never appears in that story. Are you… changing the words of the bible?

Is that blasphemy? :eek:
[/QUOTE]

Right. It is nothing but a Just So story, answering the question I ask myself every morning when the alarm clock rings, “Why do I have to work?” as well as the question just about every woman asks during labor, “Why?” I suppose some people wondered why snakes didn’t have legs also.

No Satan there at all. The goyim read all sorts of stuff into a book they’re not supposed to add to.

438

[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
And you will, in turn, note that Satan never appears in that story. Are you… changing the words of the bible? Is that blasphemy? :eek:
[/QUOTE]

Proverbs1:24-32 states, “Because I have called and you refused to answer, have stretched out my hand and no man heeded it, but you have treated as nothing all my counsel, and would accept none of my reproof, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when the thing comes that shall cause you terror and panic, when your panic comes as a storm and desolation, and your calamity comes on as a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. Then will they call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me early and diligently, but they will not find me. Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord, would have none of my counsel, and despised all my reproof, therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be satiated with their own devices. For the backsliding of the simple shall slay them, and the careless ease of fools shall destroy them.” Although your name is not in the passage, it still refers to you. You must be one of those Bible literalists I’ve heard about; that coupled together with your obvious ignorance of the rest of the Bible has made you completely incapable of connecting any dots. Stick to evolution, it doesn’t require any higher thought processes.

439

I will note, further, that you have now launched a personal attack to cover for the fact that you were, at best, forgetting what actually happens in Genesis, and at worst lying about it.

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Although your name is not in the passage, it still refers to you.
[/quote]

Your kind compassion is noted, as well. Truly, you are full of the milk of human kindness. I will, somehow, live without the transcendent bliss of following the voices in your head. Maybe some day I will learn to cope with such a loss.

[QUOTE=Bible man]

You must be one of those Bible literalists I’ve heard about;
[/quote]

You might not want to mess with logical implications, you seem not to do well with them.

And simply to clear up your willful ignorance, no, I’m one of them thar Jews who actually knows what the Torah says, even if the voices in your head tell you otherwise.

[QUOTE=Bible man]

that coupled together with your obvious ignorance of the rest of the Bible has made you completely incapable of connecting any dots.
[/quote]

“Well, you’re wrong Finn. What God meant to say is…”
I’m sure that God is glad that He has an editor like you to clarify for Him.

Perhaps you can ask the voice in your head that you call “Jesus” why it is that God made such a huge freaking mistake and had folks write “serpent” when he meant “Shaitan.”

[QUOTE=Bible man]

Stick to evolution, it doesn’t require any higher thought processes.
[/QUOTE]

What with chairs getting up and walking, and all.

Isn’t there some mitzvah somewhere about not bearing false witness? Could’ve sworn…

But, no, you are right. I’ll stick with the models which describe shifts of allelic frequency and various selection pressures, and you can stick with citing the voices in your head. I guess I just don’t have the capacity for higher-order thought processes.

440

[QUOTE=Bible man]
Stick to evolution, it doesn’t require any higher thought processes.
[/QUOTE]
Real thin ice, there. Back off.

And you aren’t helping.

Everyone leave the personal comments out of this.

[ /Moderating ]