Point taken Tom, I should’ve taken it to the Pit anyways. My apologies.
By the way, so as not to disrupt this thread, I figure that I might as well ask you a question in the Pit, tom.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
Proverbs1:24-32 states, “Because I have called and you refused to answer, have stretched out my hand and no man heeded it, but you have treated as nothing all my counsel, and would accept none of my reproof, I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when the thing comes that shall cause you terror and panic, when your panic comes as a storm and desolation, and your calamity comes on as a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. Then will they call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me early and diligently, but they will not find me. Because they hated knowledge, and did not choose the reverent and worshipful fear of the Lord, would have none of my counsel, and despised all my reproof, therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be satiated with their own devices. For the backsliding of the simple shall slay them, and the careless ease of fools shall destroy them.” Although your name is not in the passage, it still refers to you. You must be one of those Bible literalists I’ve heard about; that coupled together with your obvious ignorance of the rest of the Bible has made you completely incapable of connecting any dots. Stick to evolution, it doesn’t require any higher thought processes.
[/QUOTE]
And once again Bibleman’s true colors show. It’s interesting that it was a refutation of your erroneous post about Adam and Eve that sent you over the edge, since FinnAgain obviously pushed the main button, the one that for christians is the worst button of all you can push. Searching for knowledge is the worst thing a christian can do. It’s the original sin: Eating from the tree of knowledge. It’s not that questions don’t need answers, it’s that people don’t need questions. Every person I’ve ever met that was raised a christian and later turned away from the faith has one thing in common- their conversion began because they dared to ask. And christians can’t have people asking questions, and searching for knowledge, oh no. That’s what got humans in trouble in the first place, isn’t it.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
And christians can’t have people asking questions, and searching for knowledge, oh no.
[/QUOTE]
Bit of a broad brush there. Clearly, there are some Christians, (or, possibly, some varieties of Christians), who are aghast at the idea of questions, but that has not been a hallmark of Christianity, as witnessed by Augustine of Hippo, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Liseux, Thomas More, John Henry Newman, and hundreds of others.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
And christians can’t have people asking questions, and searching for knowledge, oh no. That’s what got humans in trouble in the first place, isn’t it.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t get that from the quote at all - it seems to be condemning people who don’t search for knowledge. I suspect it assume the Bible is the only source of knowledge worth having, but taken “literally” I think Bible man with his continued refusal to educate himself about anything not in the Bible, is more the target of this passage than anyone else in this thread. He who is without sin, etc. Amazing how some Christians ignore Jesus.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
And once again Bibleman’s true colors show. It’s interesting that it was a refutation of your erroneous post about Adam and Eve that sent you over the edge, since FinnAgain obviously pushed the main button, the one that for christians is the worst button of all you can push. Searching for knowledge is the worst thing a christian can do. It’s the original sin: Eating from the tree of knowledge. It’s not that questions don’t need answers, it’s that people don’t need questions. Every person I’ve ever met that was raised a christian and later turned away from the faith has one thing in common- their conversion began because they dared to ask. And christians can’t have people asking questions, and searching for knowledge, oh no. That’s what got humans in trouble in the first place, isn’t it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m actually a big advocate of asking questions, if more were asked there would be fewer Jonestown and David Koresh casualties. But I also recognize a real question when I see one, and I know cavilling when I see it - no one on this website could have a legitimate question about the identity of the spirit being who spoke through the serpent. And if there was such a person that truly didn’t know, they would not follow it up with a cavalier comment about blaspheming the Spirit.
P.S If you would like to catch me on a technicality, you should point out that in the garden, his name was actually Lucipher (the shining one). It wasn’t until after the temptation and fall that his name was changed to Satan - but shirley you already knew that.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
no one on this website could have a legitimate question about the identity of the spirit being who spoke through the serpent.
[/QUOTE]
Of course nobody could question that, because you’re making it up. Or can you cite, anywhere, at all, in the Torah where it is said that the serpent is Shaitan?
Didn’t think so.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
And if there was such a person that truly didn’t know, they would not follow it up with a cavalier comment about blaspheming the Spirit.
[/quote]
More like pointing out how you were either deliberately making things up about the Torah, or simply ignorant about what it said. That coupled with your repeated claims that others were ‘blaspheming’ was an act of intellectual dishonesty too juicy to pass up.
That you were totally and completely unable to actually provide any support for your mistaken claims about the that passage from the Torah, and instead resorted to personal attacks shows the quality of your argument.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
If you would like to catch me on a technicality, you should point out that in the garden, his name was actually Lucipher (the shining one).
[/quote]
Or I could point out that you’re making things up, and the name “Lucifer” is most certainly not used in Genesis. You sure as heck can’t show me the Hebrew, anywhere, with that word, can ya? I could also then point out that Lucifer’s etymological roots are in the Roman name for the first star (Morning Star) and/or the Light Bearer (lux + ferro).
[QUOTE=Bible man]
It wasn’t until after the temptation and fall that his name was changed to Satan - but shirley you already knew that.
[/quote]
And surely you know that you are again totally wrong, and that in Job he is clearly identified as Ha’Satan, The Adversary.
Just in case you’re interested in replacing your ignorance with knowledge.
Or, while I’m at it, cite anywhere in the Torah previous to the book of Job where it talks about Ha’Satan being a “fallen” anything. Or anything after that, for that matter.
Let me start by expressing sincere appreciation for the straightforward, honest and civil tone of your response.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
Inerancy of the Word is found within the concept of Truth, for example in Jn17:17 Jesus prays, “Sanctify them by the Truth, Your Word is Truth”. Nothing which has error can be the Truth. Further, the original communcations from God are inerrant even though there are many ways that the Word, and therefore the Truth, can be perverted in the hands of mankind. Some errors are minor and innocent as in copiest and translation errors, but major problems occur from misinterpretations (heresy). These errors have nothing to do with the accuracy and Truth of the Scriptures, but from the imperfections of human beings and the tendency towards evil of the human heart (see 2Pet3:16, Gal5:17-21).
[/QUOTE]
I think I understand where we differ. I think you might agree that only by surrendering to the calling of the Holy Spirit within us do we find ourselves truly changed as people. As we surrender we become better at hearing the inner voice of the spirit. If we listen to that voice and follow its lead we will begin to exhibit the fruits of the spirit described in Gal 5: 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Are we in agreement so far?
As I read Jn 17:17 I see sanctify as the act of the spirit transforming us from within. As you have said, the spoken or written word is only effective as the Holy Spirit reveals its deeper meaning. Jesus said the spirit would lead us into all truth and here he asks God to sanctify them with truth.
It’s similar to Phil 2: 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
It’s what John spoke of in
Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
So, I see the word in this verse as the indwelling of the spirit that sanctifies {transforms} us.
Yes, but it started with them using the scripture to criticize those who followed Jesus. Jesus pointed out that they didn’t pay attention to the spirit of the law and further expressed it when he said
Matthew 15:11
What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’ "
That seems to be a bit of a nitpick considering the scriptures I gave you that referred specifically to the Holy Spirit as the word of God
Yes it is the Holy Spirit moving on John and being referred to directly as the word of God. I agree that the HS inspires people and they express this inspiration in both the spoken and written word. That still leaves us with a couple of serious questions.
How much of the individuals limits, biases, and feelings is present in the writing? I think the evidence in the NT shows us that being inspired by the Holy Spirit doesn’t remove the influences of the person. Looking at the NT we have to also consider that we don’t even know what the original text said. We have copies of copies of copies.
Yes. This verse shows that it is ultimately the spirit within that resonates with a written or spoken word to lead us to the truth. The written or spoken word doesn’t have to be inerrant because we are connected to the source of truth.
But this verse does not separate the written word from the spirit. It refers to the spirits activity in our hearts and souls as the word of God directly. IMO this is one of the major problems in much of Christianity. They give primary authority to the written word, needing and wanting some external authority. What Jesus taught and what is still present in the Bible is that primary authority resides in our connection to God through the HS.
I understand your interpretation but I disagree. “obeying the truth” is following the spirit as it leads us. You might say that the “living and enduring word” is a metaphor about the written or spoken word but IMO it is speaking directly about the living spirit within us that is our connection to God and the need to surrender to that spirit. Looking at the other verses I mentioned ties it together. The parable of the seed as the word that grows within us to bear the fruits of the spirit and Jesus saying we must be born again in spirit.
I did not claim the Holy Spirit is telling me to reject the scriptures. The spirit leads us to the truth. Trying to see the scriptures truthfully for what they are and what they are not is in keeping with seeking the truth. It is also in keeping with what Jesus taught about not embracing the traditions of men over the truth. I revere the Bible as a valuable tool in seeking to know God and understanding what Jesus taught but the ultimate authority is the HS as it leads and enlightens us. The HS can use the scriptures to teach us but because it is our connection to the source It can also use anything else. Writing that isn’t considered sacred, Our experiences, Nature, a conversation, a move, anything. That’s the beauty of it. Once we make the commitment to try and listen and seek the truth everything in life serves that purpose.
Even Paul recognized that his knowledge was incomplete and he knew in part. Your interpretation supports a certain preconceived tradition about the scriptures. You haven’t convinced me that the Word in that passage you reference is the written word or that the nature of inspiration means inerrancy. Even if we assume that the original texts were inerrant we then have to face the reality that we don’t have the original text. We have plenty of solid evidence that the texts have been changed and that some of the changes are specifically about doctrine. That’s why I think it best to focus on the HS as the prime authority.
Considered by whom? The books were selected by* men *for various reasons.
Are we to trust our souls to the judgement of those men and traditions handed down by the early church?
The spirit is telling me to seek truth over tradition.
I respect and honor your right to choose your own way and follow what you sincerely believe to be true. In claiming that right for myself I have to disagree.
Your paraphrase again reflects your preconceived beliefs. It is *your * interpretation. Mine would be that as we surrender to the word of God {the spirit within us} we gain faith in that guiding spirit. We learn to listen better and trust the guidance of our inner voice.
Again, with all due respect to your beliefs and your own commitment, for myself I just don’t see any indication in the scriptures that it was God’s plan for us to have one final authoritative collection. What I see instead in the NT is that we should seek the truth by listening for leading of the HS. Since we each have access to all truth through the HS we do not need any writing to be inerrant. The scriptures can be a great tool for the spirit to teach us but it is an error to elevate them to a place of authority they were not intended to have. It is an error to explain away the evidence about men’s influence in the scriptures in order to maintain a tradition.
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
Of course nobody could question that, because you’re making it up. Or can you cite, anywhere, at all, in the Torah where it is said that the serpent is Shaitan?Didn’t think so.
More like pointing out how you were either deliberately making things up about the Torah, or simply ignorant about what it said. That coupled with your repeated claims that others were ‘blaspheming’ was an act of intellectual dishonesty too juicy to pass up.
That you were totally and completely unable to actually provide any support for your mistaken claims about the that passage from the Torah, and instead resorted to personal attacks shows the quality of your argument.
Or I could point out that you’re making things up, and the name “Lucifer” is most certainly not used in Genesis. You sure as heck can’t show me the Hebrew, anywhere, with that word, can ya? I could also then point out that Lucifer’s etymological roots are in the Roman name for the first star (Morning Star) and/or the Light Bearer (lux + ferro).
And surely you know that you are again totally wrong, and that in Job he is clearly identified as Ha’Satan, The Adversary.
[/QUOTE]
You’ve made some great points here and it looks like I might have to throw in the towel on this one. And it’s worse than I thought considering Gen3:15 as God says to the serpent, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise and tread your head under foot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel.” For a long time I thought this was a promise that the Messiah would crush Satan’s dominion on the earth and the Messiah would be killed in the process. But you’re right, there’s no mention of Satan or the Messiah in the passage. Apparently I went wrong by thinking that the Bible is a book of progressive revelation and by considering Deut8:3, “man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”. I had therefore put some scriptures together like Isa14:12, “How are you fallen from heaven, O shining one (Lucifer), son of dawn! How are you felled to earth…” and Isaiah53:3-5, “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows and pain. Yet we considered him stricken by God. But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and inquities; the chastisement needful to make us whole was upon him, and with the stripes that wounded Him we are made whole.” And of course, some New Testament scriptures influenced my thinking like Rev12:9, “And the huge dragon was cast down and out, that ages-old serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, he who is the seducer of all humanity the world over; he was forced out and down to the earth, and his angels were flung out along with him.”
Anyway, thanks for the insights, congratulations on winning the debate (it’s probably not often you take out a Bible thumper this handily) and I’m sure there’s an evolution book beckoning to you out there somewhere. The only thing you can be faulted for is this statement:
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
I’ll stick with the models which describe shifts of allelic frequency and various selection pressures
[/QUOTE]
I’m sure you’re aware that they have rules about using language like that on this website, so clean it up, okay?
[ /Moderating for tom ]
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Bit of a broad brush there. Clearly, there are some Christians, (or, possibly, some varieties of Christians), who are aghast at the idea of questions, but that has not been a hallmark of Christianity, as witnessed by Augustine of Hippo, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Liseux, Thomas More, John Henry Newman, and hundreds of others.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, maybe. But it certainly refers to christians I grew up with, as well as Bibleman. Besides, christians like that, in my experience, would say that “christians” who ask questions are Not True Christians.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
I’m actually a big advocate of asking questions, if more were asked there would be fewer Jonestown and David Koresh casualties. But I also recognize a real question when I see one, and I know cavilling when I see it - no one on this website could have a legitimate question about the identity of the spirit being who spoke through the serpent. And if there was such a person that truly didn’t know, they would not follow it up with a cavalier comment about blaspheming the Spirit.
[/quote]
I see. You like questions, as long as they are the right kind of questions. Any questions you don’t like are not “real questions.” Classic.
Hmm, no I didn’t already know that. You seem to know many facts that I do not. Can I assume that all of your “facts” are researched as exhaustively as this one? :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Voyager]
I don’t get that from the quote at all - it seems to be condemning people who don’t search for knowledge. I suspect it assume the Bible is the only source of knowledge worth having, but taken “literally” I think Bible man with his continued refusal to educate himself about anything not in the Bible, is more the target of this passage than anyone else in this thread. He who is without sin, etc. Amazing how some Christians ignore Jesus.
[/QUOTE]
I took it as the bible being the source of knowledge. I think Bibleman’s made it pretty clear that it’s the only legitimate source.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
It all goes back to the original question asked in the garden, “Hath God said?” You will note that Satan’s question to Eve was based on the fact that she had not yet been formed when Adam received God’s command not to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She was relying on Adam’s testimony to her about what God had said. Later in the conversation Satan went further and claimed the opposite to what God had spoken ie, “you will not surely die”. Satan hasn’t changed since the beginning, he puts questions in people’s minds about those who bear personal testimony about God and then offers them lies as alternatives. In this regard, since there are so many voices and opinions and paths in the market place, the testimonies which begin with “Thus says the Lord…” should be given the greater consideration because the speaker claims to be speaking in God’s stead. Psalm 82 stating, “I said you are gods” illustrates this higher level of communication - as these people were speaking and acting directly at the promptings of the Holy Spirit, they become as God Himself. Conversely, those who claim they are speaking for God when He is not truly the one influencing them are commiting blasphemy ie, misrepresenting God.
[/QUOTE]
You must admit that it is just your belief in the people that wrote what God said or did, nor can you prove the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire others to think and believe differently from you,You belive the Holy Spirit inspired them but that doesn’t mean there is a Holy Spirit. John writes that Jesus considered all men to be sons of God and as I interpet it to mean Jesus didn’t mean he was anymore the Son or Child of God then you. So I could say the Holy spirit inspired me to know this?
Monavis
[QUOTE=monavis]
You must admit that it is just your belief in the people that wrote what God said or did, nor can you prove the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire others to think and believe differently from you,You belive the Holy Spirit inspired them but that doesn’t mean there is a Holy Spirit. John writes that Jesus considered all men to be sons of God and as I interpet it to mean Jesus didn’t mean he was anymore the Son or Child of God then you. So I could say the Holy spirit inspired me to know this?
Monavis
[/QUOTE]
You’ll have to note the circular argument used.
The Scriptures are true. {which means my interpretation is the only correct one}
Since the scriptures are true the Holy Spirit would never teach anything contrary to the Scriptures {specifically my interpretation}
You can see by this “logic” that anyone who claims the Holy Spirit teaches anything other than the one and only true interpretation of the Bible {mine} is obviously following a lying spirit.
Isn’t that conveeeenient? {Dana Carvey inflection intended}
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
I see. You like questions, as long as they are the right kind of questions. Any questions you don’t like are not “real questions.” Classic.
[/QUOTE]
Apparently you’re not up on current events. FinnAgain has already acknowledged that indeed, his question was not information seeking - just as I had surmised. He even referenced a website that contained the answer(s) that he actually does accept and further, he described his question as:
[QUOTE=FinnAgain]
like pointing out how you were either deliberately making things up about the Torah, or simply ignorant about what it said. That coupled with your repeated claims that others were ‘blaspheming’ was an act of intellectual dishonesty too juicy to pass up.
[/QUOTE]
So, although I admire your passion about the importance of questions being asked and answered, we’ve already moved way past that. And you’ll be happy to learn that Finn emerged as the clear winner; his arguments were clear, convincing, and incontrovertible - I imagine that he’s curled up with a good book about spark discharge experiments or proteinaceous microspheres even as we speak.
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley]
Hmm, no I didn’t already know that. You seem to know many facts that I do not. Can I assume that all of your “facts” are researched as exhaustively as this one? :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
Yes, all facts come from a special collection of 66 books written by 40 different authors who wrote over a period of 1500 years.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
Yes, all facts come from a special collection of 66 books written by 40 different authors who wrote over a period of 1500 years.
[/QUOTE]
You mean, “all facts that you choose not to ignore”. There are actually piles of other facts not in that ancient book: are you a flat-earther? A holocaust-denier? Do you reject normal models of gravity? Do you deny the existence of automobiles?
You really should control your enthusism a little. Making blazingly false statements grants your position little credibility.
[QUOTE=begbert2]
You mean, “all facts that you choose not to ignore”. There are actually piles of other facts not in that ancient book: are you a flat-earther? A holocaust-denier? Do you reject normal models of gravity? Do you deny the existence of automobiles?You really should control your enthusism a little. Making blazingly false statements grants your position little credibility.
[/QUOTE]
That’s not really what I meant, my answer was a little too truncated - I was just referring to the two facts that had just been under discussion.
Translation: Like totally bail out bert, I’m amped but not totally gnarlatious about the Big Book.
[QUOTE=monavis]
You must admit that it is just your belief in the people that wrote what God said or did.
[/QUOTE]
This is directly related to the thread. Everyone’s belief system or world view is formed by their family of origin and societal influences. As they grow and get more independent and are able to consider other opinions, some beliefs might seem more attractive than those implanted during childhood. The testimonies of the Bible writers can’t help but strike a chord with anyone who is searching for Truth or for a higher meaning to life, with concepts like eternal life, forgiveness of sin, ressurections from the dead, miraculous events, etc. A decision to investigate starts similarly to receiving instruction from a person with headphones on. At the start, only the instructor can hear the music but as their instructions are followed, an ear for the music is developed. As more time is invested and the music becomes louder and clearer, it becomes quite apparent that every Bible writer was listening to the same symphony.
[QUOTE=monavis]
nor can you prove the Holy Spirit didn’t inspire others to think and believe differently from you.
[/QUOTE]
We are counseled to test the spirits in 1John4:1-3, “Beloved, do not put faith in every spirit; but test the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.. . and every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. This is the spirit of antichirst, of which you heard that it was coming and now it is already in the world.” The main identifying characteristic of the Holy Spirit is that He will only bear the testimony of Jesus Christ, for example Jn15:26, “But when the Comforter comes Whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth Who comes from the Father, He will testify regarding Me.” and Jn16:14, “He (the Holy Spirit)will honor and glorify Me because He will take of what is Mine and will reveal it to you”. The Holy Spirit only endorses Jesus Christ as being the Way, the Truth, and the Life, other spirits with any different testimony are not of God.
[QUOTE=monavis]
You belive the Holy Spirit inspired them but that doesn’t mean there is a Holy Spirit.
[/QUOTE]
But you can see the effects of His presence, John3:8, “The wind blows where it will; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it goes. So it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.” And besides, there is one way for you to find out if He exists ie, ask. Luke11:13, “If you then, evil-minded as your are, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask and continue to ask Him.”
[QUOTE=monavis]
John writes that Jesus considered all men to be sons of God and as I interpet it to mean Jesus didn’t mean he was anymore the Son or Child of God then you. So I could say the Holy spirit inspired me to know this?
[/QUOTE]
When the prodigal son returned home, the father said,“..let us feast and be happy and merry; because this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found!” (Luke15:23-24) Our problem is not one of sonship but that we are dead sons, born separated from God, and must be born again by the Spirit. The birth of Jesus was different than ours - He was born without sin and was never separated from the Father until the cross.
[QUOTE=Bible man]
This is directly related to the thread. Everyone’s belief system or world view is formed by their family of origin and societal influences. As they grow and get more independent and are able to consider other opinions, some beliefs might seem more attractive than those implanted during childhood. The testimonies of the Bible writers can’t help but strike a chord with anyone who is searching for Truth or for a higher meaning to life, with concepts like eternal life, forgiveness of sin, ressurections from the dead, miraculous events, etc. A decision to investigate starts similarly to receiving instruction from a person with headphones on. At the start, only the instructor can hear the music but as their instructions are followed, an ear for the music is developed. As more time is invested and the music becomes louder and clearer, it becomes quite apparent that every Bible writer was listening to the same symphony.
[/QUOTE]
I like this analogy. We might even say people are trying to tune in the station to hear the music more clearly. Even when different people are hearing the same music fairly clearly their reaction to the music is very different based on who they are as people. I used to think that of course the apostles understood it all clearly. As I’ve continued to study and had a little more life experience to help me understand how people are I realize that they didn’t. They were moved and inspired by the Holy Spirit but they were still men with their own imperfections, and opinions as they tried to apply the symphony they heard to the real life around them. Many Christians today tend to put the apostles on a pedestal but Paul acknowledged he knew in part and in 1 Cor 7:25 gives his judgement {opinion }rather than a commandment.