[QUOTE=Voyager]
Please tell us your qualifications to call anything unscientific. Include degrees and research experience. As for me, I’ve got a degree from MIT, a PhD, 15 years at Bell Labs, and lots of experience in research and in research publications. What do you have?
Not much except one invaluable thing: I have the discernment to know when someone has been educated beyond their abilities. And you kind of remind me of the old saying, “They learn more and more about less and less; pretty soon they know everything about nothing.” Up to this point you have majored in the minors, hopefully the second half of your life will produce some real knowledge.
Bible man, the next one of your not very subtle snide remarks directed against another poster is going to earn you another warning. You have responded to even the most earnest efforts to actually discuss matters about which you believe with nothing but rudeness and an unwarranted attempt at condescension. If you have nothing to offer but ill manners, perhaps your time would be better spent elsewhere.
[ /Moderating ]
Exactly the word I was groping for, it’s all very pathetic indeed - kind of like watching blind lepers taking wild swings at those sent with the serum that will cure them. It’s macabre and comical and sad all at the same time. But the Scripture about Christ must be fulfilled, “They hated me without a cause” (Jn15:25)
[QUOTE=Bible man]
So, do you want to answer the questions? I’m waiting.
Oh, and Bible Man, if you want to let it all hang out, you can do it here.
Many of the prophesies about Jesus were written after the fact, such as; At the crucifixion the New testament says the gaurds gambled for Jesus robes ,so the Prophesy would be full filled.
It looks like the Fundamentalists are trying to bring about what they believe as the second coming in this generation.
Reading Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection I was amazed at how much was like the writings about Jesus.
Monavis
Um, Matthew most certainly was not an eyewitness to the slaughter of babies in Bethlehem. He would have been a baby himself, and therefore killed.
I know exactly as much about Christ as you do, having read every word of the bible.
And it does not make you look discerning, it makes you look ridiculous. Why is it that you provide biblical references for much of what you say, but you provide no reference for the “Nazarene prophecy”? I have looked for it, as you suggested I do, and I can’t find it. Help me out. Point me to the prophecy that says the messiah would be called a Nazarene.
More misdirection. The person we were discussing was you.
If you had true Bible knowledge you would know that I spoke the Truth according to the Scriptures, there are many but here’s a few:
-“Let no person deceive himself. If any one among you supposes that he is wise in this age - let him discard his worldly discernment and recognize himself as dull, stupid and foolish, without true learning and scholarship; let him become a fool that he may become really wise. For this world’s wisdom is foolishness - absurdity and stupidity - with God. for it is written , He lays hold of the wise in their own craftiness; and again, the Lord knows the thoughts and reasonings of the humanly wise and recognizes how futile they are.” (1Cor3:18-20 amplified)
-“For it is written, I will baffle and render useless and destroy the learning of the learned and the philosophy of the philosophers and the cleverness of the clever and the discernmnent of the discerning, I will frustrate and nullify and bring them to nothing. Where is the wise man - the philosopher? Where is the scribe - the scholar? Where is the investigator - the logician, the debater - of this present time and age? Has not God shown up the nonsense and the folly of this world’s wisdom?.. Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God because the foolish thing that has its source in God is wiser than men, and the weak things that springs from God is stronger than men”. (1Cor1:19-25)
-“Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God, or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking - with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning and stupid speculations - and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools - professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves.” (Rom1:21-22)
-“See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism, and vain deceit following human tradition - men’s ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world - just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe, and disregarding the teachings of Christ” (Col2:8)
You, however, use what Bible knowledge you do have to block the Truth of the Scriptures to others at every opportunity. And like so many lemmings, those who continue to believe you, will follow you to their own destruction. You have become like a black hole, a dark star - light enters but none escapes. And if the Truth insults and offends you, should it be the one to change?
[ /Moderating for the Truth]
You have been shown to lie in multiple posts. If you believe that Jesus needs you to lie for him, I suggest that you go back and prayerfully reconsider why you feel that is necessary.
That notwithstanding, it is not your witnessing or even your misstatements, but your deliberately rude personal attacks on posters for which you are being admonished. If you cannot make your point without resorting to insult, then we will not provide this Forum in which you may preach.
If BM won’t go into the “300 prophecies” that he brought up, I’ll do it for him.
Very often you’ll find lists of prophecies such as these on the web. However, when you take a look at the “prophecies” closely, you’ll find that there very few of them, if any, are messianic in nature and have nothing at all to do with Jesus.
The first one from one such list I found is Genesis 3:15 - he will bruise Satan’s head. Now I suppose one could view the Garden of Eden/Serpent story as allegorical, but it hardly follows that God was telling Satan that a specific individual would bruise Satan’s head. The simple meaning of the verse is that while the serpent would only be able to bite man’s lower extremeties, man would be able to smash the serpent’s head with his foot.
In any event, this isn’t a prophecy, it’s a simple statement of the new nature, especially considering the curses given to the Man and Woman in the same chapter.
The next one is Gen 5:24 - The bodily ascension to Heaven illustrated. The verse there deals with Chanoch and his “death.” There are varying traditions regarding Chanoch’s fate (from a literal ascention to heaven, to this being a euphamism for an early death to prevent him from being corrupted), but this, in no way, is a prophecy of any kind - it’s a simple statement of fact (and a somewhat ambiguous one at that) regarding what happened to one particular individual. Personally, if I were compliling the list, I would have pointed to Elijah, where the ascension is far more explicit - but that too, is not indicative of something that would happen to the messiah.
The next one on the list is Gen 9:26, where the list claims that the God of Shem will be the Son of Shem. The verse, however, says nothing of the kind – Noah is blessing the God of Shem. There is no mention of his son.
The fourth one on the list is Gen 12:3 - As Abraham’s seed, will bless all the nations. Again, that’s not what the verse says - all it says is that God will bless those who bless Abraham and will curse those who curse him. It doesn’t mention anything about Abraham or his descendants cursing anyone.
The fifth one is Gen 12:7 - The Promise made to Abraham’s seed. Well, the promise in the verse is that Abraham’s descendants will inherit the land of Israel. That’s it. That blessing was fulfilled long before Jesus was born when the Jews conquered the land in the days of Yehoshua. Furthermore, when Jesus was in the land, the Romans ruled Israel and would, within a generation of his death, destroy the Temple and further scatter the Children of Israel. Hardly fulfilling of the promise.
And on and on the list goes. Many of these aren’t prohecies, many aren’t messianic in nature and many haven’t been fulfilled by Jesus, and even if there are one or two that actually were, one must then ask if the prophecy exclusively points to him – or could it point to others as well.
In short, the list of “300 prophecies” fulfilled by Jesus is largely nonsense. If you want to believe that Jesus is the messiah, and the deity, then by all means, preach about his good works and lessons - but don’t use nonsense and deceit.
Zev Steinhardt
More to the point, Bible Man, look carefully at the seventh chapter of Matthew. (And not the “pearls before swine” utterance!)
In this thread, who have you judged? Not God, not the Bible – you yourself, in your own words. I can think of a half dozen people who strive to follow Christ according to their understanding of His commands, whom you have cast aspersions on because they do not accept your personal take on Scripture. God will judge you as you judge them – something badchad pointed out to me, regarding my attitudes towards fundamentalists, and I’m taking seriously. Then consider what Jesus says “is” (=summarizes in one sentence) the Law and the Prophets. Have you indeed done unto others as you would have them do unto you?
“You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” People have presented to you the truth of God’s Creation, and you are rejecting it in favor of your own warped understanding of Scripture and an erroneous concept that they subscribe to “the religion of Darwinism.” What they subscribe to is finding out the truth, by the best means possible – including the scientific method.
It is not for me to judge you. But it is for me to warn you that your witness is founded, not on the Good News of Christ and the fruit of the Spirit, but on your own ego as His messenger – and many of us have spent years trying to learn all we can about Him and His words.
“Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.” (Proverbs 12:22)
Even in this trainwreck of a thread, I just wanted to say to Poly, tom and the other Christians who believe in the power of reason, that you are all are excellent ambassadors for your faith.
This ol’ Jewish gnostic agnostic a-theist certainly finds value in your posts, even when we disagree.
Thank you for your efforts.
This is worth a quick reply before work.
Poly and Tom do put a nice face on the irrational beliefs for which they have been (what was this thread title?) brainwashed since birth. Still, that does not change the fact that they only believe in the power of reason so long as they can still reconcile it with what they consider their essential brain-washings. After that all bets are off.
I’m guessing BC could insult someone just by asking them the weather!
Thank you for your concern, but I rely on my own judgement when discerning the quality of someone’s character. And I do apologize for starting this tangent, as I’d rather this thread didn’t devolve into a discussion of tom and poly’s personality traits.
It being your allegation here, and not my claims, that would be at issue, I would suggest that it is now incumbent on you to prove that my beliefs are the product of being “brainwashed since birth” and not arrived at rationally through examination of evidence. If you can do this in a civil manner, I will likely respond. If you resort to what I consider personal insults, I will, as is my prerogative, report them.
In the interim, badchad, let me ask what your opinion is of Bible Man’s arguments to date.
Not to claim that you were “brainwashed”, but I’m a bit puzzled about this claim poly.
I’ve always viewed faith as a sort of aesthetic, a coherent (or not) semi-artistic interpretation of reality in accord with someone’s personal views. I don’t see that as particularly bad, or good, for that matter. It seems to me that inherent in the definition of faith is that it cannot be arrived at through rational inquiry, proof, and refutation. It requires belief despite a lack of proof, that’s what makes it faith as distinct from a conclusion.
I don’t need faith to know that I’m typing this on my laptop. I do need faith to believe that my fiancee will love me 'till death parts us.
What rational examination of what evidence would lead you to believe, for instance, that a man born Yoshua Ben Yoseph died, rose from the grave, and was really the Son of God? I ask this not to be flipant, but out of honest curiousity.
Saying that there is evidence that can be rationally analyzed implies, in my reading, that there is evidence that I could apply an objective set of standards to in order to reach the same conclusions that you have reached.
I simply do not see that that’s the case.
So while I wouldn’t say you’ve been “brainwashed”, or that all of your adult beliefs are informed by your childhood beliefs… I would have great trouble believing that you had reached your beliefs through rational examination of evidence.
Can you please expand on that?
Does anybody else have any idea where the “Nazarene prophecy” is in the OT? I wasn’t kidding when I asked BM to cite it- I’d really like to know. I can’t find it.
It doesn’t exist. Matthew either made it up or else was quoting some book that never made it into the canon and was lost.
Zev Steinhardt