Exactly. This the part I don’t find credible.
Good grief. Of course, it’s not your experience of “how mass works”! I’m not suggesting that anyone reading this board has ever witnessed such a scene.
But do you think such a scene is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE (not unlikely, because it certainly is unlikely) in a village in Ireland in 1950? That is the question this thread poses. Not unlikely, but “could never, ever happen.”
This equine is close to being deceased… Thanks for the discussion.
Of course it could happen. Priests in rural parishes were the ultimate authority in an otherwise destitute existence. Power corrupts, especially in the context of overall scarcity.
I suppose we can’t say that *anything *“could never, ever happen.”
But in Catholicism, the Mass, the Eucharistic celebration, proceeds according to *very *strict rules. The celebrant does not have the leeway that clergy in other Christian denominations have. He doesn’t have any, in fact. It is unthinkable to me, a lifelong churchgoer, that a priest, even the worst priest imaginable, would interrupt the Mass (the OP says “during Sunday Mass”) to violently drag a woman up to the altar.
I haven’t read the novel (and I suspect that no one in the thread other than the OP has either) – the actual text of the novel might make me feel differently. But, if the “during Sunday Mass” is accurate, I would probably still not find it all that credible.
During the Liturgy itself there is, as you say, virtually no room for departure. During the sermon/homily, however, it is conceivable* that the priest might get so wound up fulminating about immorality in general and sexual immorality in particular that he would behave in the manner described. Unlikely to be sure, but if there were a place to interrupt the proceedings that would be it.
*ISWIDT
Right, the celebrant in a Catholic mass does have some leeway, in the homily. And, heck, I’ve been at Masses where the priest interacted with specific members of the congregation during the homily (though always in a positive context, not like this). If this happened, that’s when it would happen.
As I said, I guess we can’t say that anything “could never, ever happen.”
I think it’s entirely possibly that an umarried, pregnant woman would be shamed and humiliated. It’s even probable, in that time and place.
But the whole point of the Magdalene laundries, and the other “baby homes,” was to keep things quiet and out of the public eye.
A priest might rant and rave (during his sermon, as OttoDaFe and Chronos correctly point out) about unwed mothers in general, but to drag a woman up to the altar during Mass, even during his sermon? Never. A woman in that unfortunate position wouldn’t have been allowed through the church doors, let alone onto the altar.
I am in no way trying to exonerate the Church for its treatment of women, then or now.
It’s just that this little vignette doesn’t ring true to me.
But, as I said, I haven’t read this novel. Only a brief description by someone else of one passage from the book. Perhaps if I actually read the book, it would be more convincing to me.
Maybe I’ll do that.
When I went on long road trips I would usually go to Mass on Sunday wherever I happened to be, and sometimes, especially in remote rural parishes, those priests were weird. Of course the liturgy was the same, but there is plenty of room in a Mass for a presider with a captive audience to turn the homily into a rambling incomprehensible rant. But in the US, priests do not have the same power that they did in Ireland, where they were unassailable and enormously powerful because the Church sort of ate everything there. I think a lot of crazy nasty things could happen in that situation.
That’s how the book starts. Read some of the Amazon reviews and see if you think the book would appeal. Here’s an except from one review:
Another review snip-- I see I made a mistake. She was ejected from the church in 1945, not 1950.
It would be an atypical experience, but there’s no shortage of those.
An upthread link mentioned the Magdalene laundries, which were the subject of a very powerful movie in 2003. The film took place in the mid-to-late 60s, but the Magdalene Asylums operated from 1767 until 1996.
I clicked on your link, on the chance that the first few pages would be available for our perusal, but no such luck.
Still, you mention that the novel is written in the first person. If Cyril is relating the tale of his mother’s treatment at the hands of Father Hypocriticus, it could only be based on what he was told. If Catherine Goggin learned what was in store for her and her child in the Laundries, and ran away to escape that fate, she could well have spun a tale to whomever provided her refuge; a tale that ultimately found its way into Cyril’s autobiographical narrative.
Okay, I didn’t know there was a “dragging a pregnant woman to the altar scene”. That does sound extremely unlikely, but in an isolated community where the priest is viewed as God’s chosen representative on earth, and is allowed any outrage he wants, maybe. But still, not likely.
In the OP:
What does “not allowed through the church doors” mean? What would have happened if, despite not being allowed, such a young woman had entered the church anyway? I would say that the scene described is exactly what “not allowed into the church” would look like.
“not allowed through the church doors” was hyperbole on my part. I was trying to convey my belief (and experience) that situations like this were handled in the dark, not by making a public spectacle of the unfortunate young woman, who would have been hustled off to some quite probably horrible place, out of sight of the community.
Let’s keep sight of the fact that we’re discussing a work of fiction, not a historical account of an actual incident.
This *fictional *account does not ring true to me. Were the same story presented in a well-sourced work of history, that would be a different story.
An afterthought:
By the way, if anyone is looking for a novel by an Irish writer that deals with similar themes, I can’t recommend Sebastian Barry’s The Secret Scripture enough. Barry is a fantastic writer. His *A Long Long Way *rivals All Quiet on the Western Front as a (maybe the) World War I novel.
My counterpoint:
I grew up Catholic (in the US). I attended Catholic grade schools, and a Catholic high school. During a class in high school, I watched our teacher – a priest – storm over to a chronically misbehaving student (who was probably 14 or 15), grab him by his collar, yank him out of his chair and onto his feet, and physically pull him to the office.
As an adult, I learned of at least two priests whom I had as teachers at that high school who sexually assaulted multiple of my classmates.
And, as all of us have noted in this thread, the Catholic Church in Ireland was horribly abusive to young unwed mothers.
Is the scene in that novel fictionalized? Quite possibly so. Is it something that could have never actually happened, as you (and the woman in ThelmaLou’s book club) believe? I disagree; even if it might not have been likely, I don’t see how it could not possibly have happened as depicted.
To be totally pedantic about it, the first part of a Mass, with the readings and sermon/homily, used to be separate from the second part, the “real” Mass, which begins with the offering and includes the Eucharist. In ancient times, only the “faithful” (i.e., Catholics in good standing) were allowed to attend the second part. There’s a vestige of this today, where priests can deny the Eucharist to people who blatantly disregard the rules of the church, such as non-celibate gays or politicians who advocate abortion rights.
So, it’s perfectly conceivable that a cranky old priest could let a pregnant, unmarried woman sit through the readings, and then berate her and physically force her to get up and leave.
Anyone who thanks no one would ever do that in public has never been taught by an old-school Catholic nun.
One might argue that sin and shame are the basis for many religions, if not the driving force.
Same. And I’m old enough to remember the Latin Mass.
I saw nuns do this, in grammar school. I had nuns do it to me, actually. High school, there was less of that, which I attribute to having gone to a Jesuit high school. My brother, who went to a high school run by the Marists, saw plenty of it. And the Christian Brothers were notorious.
But the classroom isn’t the Mass.
None of my high school teachers were ever accused of anything like that, nor did I even hear any rumours about any of them. But one priest in the parish in which I grew up was accused, and busted. Yes, it happens.
All too true.
Still doesn’t ring true to me. And the scene isn’t “fictionalized,” it’s actually fiction.