Believers: Why doesn't God save martyrs from torture and death?

Recently I have been listening to Leonard Cohen. One of his songs, “Joan of Arc,” is about, shockingly, Joan of Arc. Or, I should say, Saint Joan of Arc, as she is long since canonized.

Given that the Roman Catholic Church’s position is that Joan definitely received salvation and is now in the Bosom of Abraham, something occurs to me: Why didn’t God save her from being burned at the stake?

Yes, I suppose one could argue that the example of her bravery and sacrifice contributed to the spreading teh message of the Gospel. But I can’t help but think that if God had, oh, sent a rainshower to douse the flames when first they were lit, and then, when one of the officials tried to light them again, struck that person down with a thunderbolt, repeating the process until they the authorities relented and let Joan go home, that would have been just as effective, and a good deal less painful for Joan.

If I recall aright, God did intervene to keep St. Cecilia from being boiled. When the Romans decided to behead her instead, the ax-man tried thrice to remove her head only to be frustrated by an intervention of an angel; she was left with her head connected by a bare thread to her body, and for three days lingered in agony. You know what might have also worked? The angel taking the axe being used for the decapitation and chopping off the axe-man’s head. Or the head of the official who had ordered the execution. An axe being wrenched from its wielder’s grasp by invisible hands and then being used on the authorities would have been quite as effective as Cecilia’s three days of agony and occasional singing.

And so forth.

Anyway…this is all my roundabout way of getting to the thread question. Why does God not intervene to save the lives of martyrs?

ETA: In your answer, please assume that validity of the inquiry–in other words, answer with the understanding that God exists and cares for his servants. If you must, pretend that we’re talking about Lord of the Rings or Battlestar Galactica. I’m not trying to start a believers-versus-atheists thread.

Because then they wouldn’t be martyrs.

Well, while I can give you my atheist answer, since you don’t want that, let me try a believer’s answer…

God doesn’t do it because both the martyr and the church as a whole benefit from the martyrdom. In exchange for a little transient suffering, the martyr got a reward in heaven for their martyrdom and became an inspiration to the church to this day.

How’s that sound?

^^

It’s more that I don’t want to start a “religious people are evil and/or stupid!” thread, the thread title was practically the Der Trihs signal.

Dang you Jack. Dang you all to heck.

OK serious theological answer instead, then, with parables and metaphors and stuff…
Let’s imagine a great message board, a truly divine message board in fact, the Supernatural Divinity Message Board or some such thing. Oddly, this message board does not have clearly posted official rules, at all, anywhere; instead, there are various opinionated threads created by folks who think they have discerned the rules by abstracting out, from observation, what happens to posters under various situations. Some of these people style themselves “Administrators” or “Moderators” but unlike ordinary mortal boards on which such folks really do possess board-powers that ordinary members do not have, it appears that the “Administrators” and “Moderators” on the Supe Divine only have whatever powers are informally conceded to them by the ordinary members who believe in the veracity of these folks’ version of The Rules. I say “appears” because some of them have claimed otherwise, but there’s no evidence for it.

Most of them have posited a Board Owner of sorts, the Grand Overseer of the Divine, aka G.O.D. or in this periodless-acronym era simply GOD. Depending on who you ask, GOD is either a real person (or personage) who wrote the rules; or is an abstraction representing “the source of the rules”; or really exists but is so far beyond our comprehension that we can’t really say anything about GOD aside from GOD is the source of the rules. Well, OK, there are also those who openly say that the self-styled “Administrators” and “Moderators” are a bunch of charlatans and fakes and that there is no freaking GOD. Oddly enough, many of them, also, believe that observations can be made about behavior and its consequences on the Supe Divine, and generalizations made, although they carefully steer away from using the terminology “The Rules” to refer to them, lest someone get the mistaken impression that they believe there is some GOD who wrote them.

Anyway, with all that as backdrop, if you will…

A poster, Jeannie D’Arc, on the Supe Divine posted in a fashion that was upsetting to many people but ultimately was drawing attention to some unresolved issues that had been causing a lot of grief, and in bringing this stuff out into the open could be seen to be doing good-citizenship kinds of things on the board. But the reaction of a lot of folks was very very nasty; Jeannie got <ahem> pitted, was Google-stalked and all kinds of personal secrets posted in public, off-board attacks were known to occur, some Mods and Admins joined in on the attack and branded Jeannie a troll, and someone finally ran a password-cracker that guessed her password and went in and changed it, thereby effectively deleting her account.

Now you ask why GOD did not step in and PUT A STOP to this nastiness.

Let’s ask around…

a) Some of the self-appointed Mods and Admins at Supe are mumbling and dissembling about how we cannot know GOD’s plan or how in an alleged invisible Eternal Board that operates behind this one she is still posting and is held in high esteem for what she did on the Divine.

b) Among some of those who believe in GOD, as well as some who dismiss all that stuff as fakery and crap, are quite a few who say that The Rules (or the generalizations from observations if you hate the ‘GODism’ implications of that phrase) appear to support a kind of anything-goes / laissez-faire environment as far as behavior being prevented — no behavior really gets prevented if it is possible behavior at all — but that all behavior has consequences. The ones who dismiss the whole ‘GOD’ thing say this is part of why they do not go along with the ‘GOD’ and ‘Rules’ crowd — that it’s all just natural law of actions having results, period, end of story. The similarly-minded who do believe in GOD, even if only as an abstraction, say that the point is that when you look at the effect of those patterns of behavior and consequences, there’s something endearingly compassionate and also kind of deliberate-looking about how it all works. This may seem an odd interpretation when bad things can still happen to good folks like Jeannie D’Arc but they say you have to look beyond what does and does not happen to individual posters and instead look more at the long-term outcome of behavior on the board as it affects the board as a whole.

c) Certainly some of the cynical ones say that insofar as there is no freaking ‘GOD’, and that the only ‘Rules’ are “hit before you get hit and get away with what you can”, say that the laws of cause and effect support the strong and selfish and Jeanne D’Arc took a lot of risks for very little likely gain in personal power and prestige and that this is the kind of thing that happens when you do not look out for yourself. Like, duh!

d) There are some differently cynical ones who believe neither in ‘GOD’ nor anything particularly nice or emergently compassionate in the workings of cause and effect, who say simply that everything that happens is mostly random and that nothing has any meaning or purpose aside from that attributed to it by other posters who attribute various meanings to events for their own reasons as part of their own agenda. “We can’t even really know what did happen. It was to a large extent behind the scenes and below the observable surface. That’s how everything is. Nothing is knowable. What do you WANT it to mean? What meaning can you attribute to it that will further your interests or serve your purposes? That’s what you should focus on”

Dunno if this sheds any light on anything for you or not.

Because the Lord works in myst… I’m not gonna get away with it, am I ?

I think God canonically doesn’t save martyrs (or anyone, really) because a good part of Christianity is about denying that what happens in this world really matters compared to what comes next ; and in fact that suffering in this world, while not guaranteeing a sparkling condo in Heaven, is at least a good down payment.

But on a more basic level, I think that by letting Evil People torment his martyrs, and not lifting a finger, God is up to his old individual testing tricks again. I hear he’s big on elaborate and breathtakingly cruel trials, for a loving God. “How much do you love me, really ? Would you go to certain death in my name and feel certain it’d be worth it ? Let’s see, shall we ?”

It’s the spiritual version of “You say you love me, honey, now prove it : take it in the butt.”

God doesn’t want his existence to be too obvious. If he went around doing miracles all the time, just about everyone would believe in him, and what fun would that be?

Then people would have to actually go do stuff, rather than just have faith, in order to be his elite.

This is precisely the first thing I thought of.

If the question is, “Why doesn’t God save some martyrs?” the answer is “How do you know he doesn’t?”

If the question is, “Why doesn’t God save all martyrs?” the answer is: If he did that, we would live in a world in which it was impossible to be tortured and killed for one’s faith. God would always step in and save you, guaranteed. Such a world would be significantly different from the one we actually live in.

That’d be my answer. In fact, my answer to any variant of “Why does God let bad things happen to good people?” is that Jesus never promises anyone a rose garden. He instead makes note that life on earth is typically (at times) painful, wretched and generally unpleasant. The goal is supposed to be what comes after.

Simply put: because there is free will and the earthly fate of a person’s body is not important.

God wants people to freely choose to believe him. Overt evidence of God’s existence would remove that choice, or at least greatly taint it.

And why would God want to protect someone who truly believes? That person has already succeeded! I would expect God to spare those who do not believe yet–they are the ones who need more time.

Huh? How would real evidence of something taint a person’s decision to believe in that thing or not? If the evidence was fake or something, that would taint the decision. But having real evidence? No, I don’t see how that would force a person to do anything.

Actually, the fact that god chooses to withhold evidence of his existence, reducing the decision to believe in him or not to one of pure faith, is a strike against god. He’s expecting us to make decisions that will affect us for eternity and is lying to us by omission about it.

I expect Joan, while being burned alive, might have appreciated, at the very least, some miraculous anesthetic.

At least she could take comfort in Neil Young’s words : better to burn out than fade away.

Incidentally, who’s that red guy with the pitchfork, and why is he tugging my arm ?

Somewhat like the plot of this very special episode of Futurama.

Seriously, it’s one of the more clever treatments of the apparent inattentiveness of God.

Not that I personally buy into it, but it at least gives a reason behind God avoiding showy demonstrations of his power.

When most people are presented with strong evidence for something, they will accept that the something is true. That is a type of coercion–the evidence convinces them of something.

An example. There is strong evidence of gravity. Things fall down. You can watch the motion of satellites around the earth, and the planets around the sun. Is there a free choice to accept or not the existence of gravity?

The lack of evidence for God allows the choice to believe or not to be completely free.

That’s my uncle Lucy. Don’t worry; he’s here to offer you a job. You can thank me for the recommendation later.

Of course, it also leaves me free to believe in Thor, Zeus, Indra, Aslan,and Iorek Byrnison.

Well Yah! I even heard that Jesus started to say " Father into thy hands I…

and a heavenly angel said, “Not Yet! , get the sour wine first , then the side piercing, then that.”

Then Jesus said “Father forgive *me *I know not what I do” which was rephrased in the gospels.

And I’m sure the citizens of Gomorrah would’ve appreciated that.