I agree. And I also believe that it wasn’t fair of God to not let others know of existence besides the ones that came into contact with jesus before death. They, according to the bible, woulda gone to hell. So would babies, who are born sinners, again like the bible says, that die (yes very violent and upsetting) way before they can even begin to understand god’s existence.
One thing that has easily helped promote the belief in God is Russell’s Teapot. The Celestial Teapot is used as an example when illustrating the idea that you can claim any scientifically unfalsifiable claims through the concept that one must first disprove its existence, rather than the first person proving it to exist in the first place. Bertrand Russell claimed that a teapot was orbiting the sun; because it was too small to detect, no one could prove it didn’t exist, and so must accept that it MUST exist, if they wished to believe that God exists so long as they can’t find proof s/he doesn’t. This has also been used in the satirical Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/
The one place where I still find room for some form of god is deism. If the laws of thermodynamics are correct, then energy/matter can neither be created or destroyed. Also we have the law that states that entropy always increases. If we take the universe as a whole, where did the original order come from? I just don’t see anything in any of the sciences (astronomy, quantum mechanics, etc.) that could explain the very fact of existence using only the laws of our current universe. Maybe I misunderstand the science, and if that is the case, I would appreciate it if someone with more knowledge of these sciences could explain what kind of testable hypothesis their is that can explain the existence of the universe instead of nothingness.
Some people of varying faiths have what might be described as “unity experiences.” That seems to be a common thread. Each person’s experience(s) varies but usually includes feelings of extreme bliss, a feeling of expansion of the personal self, and a sense of unity with everything from a blade of grass to stones to other people. Things of our past seem sweet, but inconsequential. Individual religions seem to have no bounds.
When that happened to me roughly thirty years ago, I had never heard of that happening to anyone else. Now I read about it or hear about it from lots of people. Although I am a Christian, I did not associate it at the time with Christian teachings, but I did see things in the teachings later that seemed to make sense of it. And I have become much more open to other faiths and I am not as quick to judge them except those that are close-minded themselves. Zealots who want to take over our government still give me the creeps.
I think God is too big to be comprehended. Those who declare that God does not exist do not know that with scientific certainty anymore than the faithful know. But this is a reminder that not all of us depend just on the words of others. Like you, we depend on our experiences – our observations. Those moments seem more real than any other moments in my life.
I do not believe in hell or exclusiveness. As I’ve said before, maybe God is “the Great Cosmic Glue.”
Do you know for a certainty that wood sprites don’t exist?
I’ve had that experience. At one time in my life, I was obsessed with finding what William James called the “universal Religious Experience.” I experimented with a lot of mystic techniques, and had some successes. They were ant-climactic. They were interesting cognitive gymnastics, but it was still just really altered brain chemistry. I didn’t learn anything or become a better person.
Those experiences can also be induced by stimulating certain parts of the brain. Every religious experience can be duplicated by poking the right part of the brain.
There’s nothing supernatural about them. They may be pleasant or seem profound, but they impart no new knowledge and are certainly not evidence for sky gods.
One thing I do no for a certainty is that, so far, we have discovered nothing in the universe that requires a God, and the gods that humans imagine are both logically and empirically inconsistent with observed reality. I assume sky gods don’t exist the same way I assume werewolves don’t exist, but anytime anyone wants to show either evidence or necessity, I’m all ears.
Personal experience won’t cut it for me, because I had it (twice actually), and I knew what it really was while it was happening and I wasn’t impressed.
That isn’t understood by science, and probably never will be. The big bang theory does a very good job of explaining the very early history of our universe, down to the first fractions of seconds, but does not explain the event itself. Terry Pratchett said it best:
Recently, it has been claimed that the distribution of the cosmic background radiation supports the multiverse theory. It’s possible that we just happen to live in a bubble of space-time that obeys those particular laws, other bubbles may behave differently. This would settle the argument over the anthropic principle, explaining why we live in universe that supports life. However, even if that is the case, it does not explain why we live in a multiverse.
But if science cannot ultimately explain the origin of our universe, I question whether it is in any way meaningful to say “God did it”, that also explains nothing. What manner of God? Why did they create our universe as it is?
That’s why I retain a little agnosticism, ultimately these questions may be beyond by comprehension.
The problem with personal revelation is that people have contradictory experiences which seem equally real to them. Here is a fascinating study on the efficacy of prayer on religioustolerance.org. The summary of results are here, and here is the interpretation of them.
The concept of heaven and hell is not too productive in this. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, it certainly does, but it tends to distract and frighten many people, and sends motivation which is not of God such as fear.
The parable of the prodigal son is a great example of our soul’s journey into this world and how we will eventually ‘run out or resources’ and need to travel back home. Though it doesn’t explain how we will know where to seek, which is the main thrust of what you are asking. But it is better to assure us that it is within us to seek God when all else seems lost and there is no way out - so we all have a return path back home to God. If it helps you to call that place heaven then go for it, but IMHO it is better though of as the kingdom of God, or simply family of God, as why Jesus called God his Abba-Father (Daddy/Father), this is the name of God that Jesus revealed to us, what a father’s ears long to be call by His young child - Daddy.
How we know to seek God:
There is a longing of the human heart to Love and to be Loved. This is because we are made in the likeness of God and God is Love, but the likeness is more then that, we are God’s very children. Our longing of our heart for Love is our longing for God, they are the same.
We know Love when we get it, The true stuff. the first time I remember for me was a hug given to me in high school. There was something magical about it that is memorable to this day. Once we get it we will seek it out. As we experience Love though other people we can see that the Love is the same, from the same source, that is God, even though it comes through different people. Eventually this path of Love we follow will have us realize that Love is a living spirit (in scriptures God is Love, God is Spirit, God is the God of the Living) and has guided us to greater Love and the realization that God has guided us.
The above is a example of how even in a society that does not believe in any gods a person can find God.
The question of rock worship, the subset of pantheism (god is in everything), and it’s close sibling polytheism ( many gods), requires God to shift your focus from the material object and physically individual entities to that of Love coming through all objects and entities and originate from a single source higher then the objects and individual entities, and where that Love is coming from - God
There are many ways to do it. God could have His Love come through a tree next time, something that you can feel, or a person, to get your attention off the rock. And in the case of seeking Love, eventually one will realize that it is one God through all (creation/people).
If one checks what Paul said Love is…then God doesn’t fit the definition. Starting with Love is not self seeking.
Actually science does offer an explanation of something from nothing. On the quantum level things do suddenly appear.
The concept of first cause is also answered by that quantum event. The big bang was the beginning of time. Therefore no first cause is necessary since then if you say god did it, you have to explain where god came from. That is back to square one,
OK, assume we have no possible science-based explanation for why there is something rather than nothing. Why pin the label of “God” on the alternate explanation? It is so overloaded with connotations of being the source or morality, or something that intervenes in life, or rewards and punishes people, and hundreds of other concepts that do not in any way flow from the idea of simply the creator.
Instead let’s call it R, for “the reason”. So what do we know about R?
- It created everything
And that’s about it.
So basically you’re saying:
*You’d have managed better if you’d had it planned.
Why’d you choose such a backward time in such a strange land?
If you’d come today you could have reached a whole nation.
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication. *
Can’t believe no one did that yet. 
FYI, I was raised Catholic and asked the same question of the nuns when I was in 4th or 5th grade, and they were not amused. Something about Faith being important and all that.
Anyway, keep asking questions. I’m not religious in any way, but I know enough about the NT and what Jesus said to think that he (assuming he existed) would be appalled at the idea of powerful, organized religion like the RCC with all its dark history, its focus on ritual and orthodoxy, the luxurious lifestyle of its leaders, and much, much more.
I think the real Jesus would be appalled to see himself being worshiped as a god at all, and never thought of himself as anything but Jewish.
You know a lot more than I do about the subject, so I’ll defer to your judgenemt on the first item. But yes, I agree on the second.
Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are all hanging out with their “god”… laughing their asses off.
I find it incredible that so many millions of intelligent people can believe in, and worship a god that would allow all the killing and destructive confusion that has existed in his name, for thousands of years now. Especially when this same god was really involved directly and hands on in mankind’s affairs early on. So much for the three major Western religions. I also have a problem with omnipotence. If you could no longer learn or experience anything new, what would be the point of continued existence?
The big question: did matter begat intelligence, or did intelligence begat matter? Logically, it makes a lot more sense that intelligence created matter than the other way around, as we manipulate it so well.
The bottom line is, I really don’t know.
I can relate my own experiences, if that’s any help.
I was raised going to a protestant church, and although as a kid I believed in God, I never had anything happen that made me think “hey, that good thing (or whatever) that just happened must have been god’s doing!” It all seemed random to me, but I didn’t doubt that god existed.
Once I learned about all the the other religions in the world that were incompatible with mine, with the realization that I only believed in mine because I happened to be “lucky” enough to born into the geographic location that happened to follow the correct religion, that made me think a bit. Aren’t these other people going to go to hell for what isn’t their fault? I asked my Mom about this, but she had no good answer. If she had softened her fundyish stance that either you worship Jesus, or you burn in hell forever, this might not have been as important a factor in me later rejecting Christianity. But she didn’t, because that what she was taught to believe, and if you doubt that stuff you are tortured for eternity.
I didn’t reject Christianity or theism in general at that time, but I think that was the first seeds of my skepticism.
I knew about mythologies, but I never really made the connection between them and religions until a 7th grade teacher casually mentioned that these myths were these people’s religions. I don’t know if it was that night, but some night not long after that I recall lying in bed thinking about it, and I could not escape the conclusion that ALL gods people talked about were mythical. It was a difficult thing, since I was raised to believe that atheists go to hell. But I couldn’t ignore all the facts.
I do. Matter created intelligence.
You’d think so, wouldn’t you? But oddly enough, those closest to the so-called miracles were not likely to believe. Early Christianity made little or no headway in Israel, and far more in other parts of the Empire, far from the site of the supposed events. My ancestors back 2,000 years ago didn’t seem very convinced.
This is especially true because Christianity, unlike most other religions of the time, claimed that there were terrible consequences of not believing. I know there are various not very bad circles of hell for virtuous pagans or whatever, but why wait so long as well as not appearing in many places in parallel.
Don’t you think this argues for some facet of our brain which induces these experiences, not an external force? The implication of this is that they are widespread (true) and can be induced by drugs or things that influence the brain (also true.) If there were a particular God causing them, they’d be localized to the believers of that God, so these experiences argue against any specific religion.
The truth of our experiences does not imply that they map to outside reality. I have some really interesting thoughts and visions sitting in boring meetings right after lunch after a few days of hour hours of sleep. If I start acting on them I hope someone will put me in the booby hatch. These experiences can be the spark of creativity, but they should be tested. Keith Richards might have come up with the hook for “Satisfaction” in his sleep, but I suspect most dreamed up or visioned up ideas are crap.
I don’t find that that really resolves the mystery.
There is still Something in existence in that case, namely, quantum mechanics, or the laws of physics more generally. From the beginning there existed a set of rules about what sorts of things can exist — quarks, gluons, leptons, and the like — and the various ways in which they can interact. Whether the rules are deterministic or probabilistic or a bit of each doesn’t change the bizarre fact that they exist at all, when it doesn’t seem especially necessary that they would exist, or have the particular forms they seem to have.
A genuine universe of Nothing would not only be devoid of physical stuff, like matter and energy, but wouldn’t have any way of changing state, to become Something.
No argument on that point.