The Osmonds, at one time, were by far the best-selling band (group/music makers) in the world. Taylor Swift is far and away the best-selling music maker today and has been for most of her career. Are they are any list for greatest ever? Are they even bands? Why or why not?
In popular music, sales and greatness often correlate. Elvis. The Beatles. Michael Jackson. David Seville. But they often don’t. That Zimmerman guy has never been a top of the charts squatter. But he has range and influence and recognition and awareness and songwriting skill and played with a band whole bunches.
Contrarian threads are fun. The big problem with them is that you have to have tons and tons and tons of evidence to make the tiniest inroad. A pure announcement, as in this one, will and should get nothing but derision.
Actually, the thread is largely for the sake of exploring the perpetual argument straight men have about ‘proper’ bands and their tendency to dismiss music that appeals to others. Very little evidence has been offered in support of any counterclaim. True, little more has been offered in support of the claim…
No, I’m not. Not at all. Your second mistake is in ignoring the context of my remarks. I was responding to a post that mentioned the band and the rock god flautist. He a rock god flautist legend, do you see now? Not helping your case, are you?
I value your opinion almost as much as you do, though not as much as you value the equally unsupported assertions of several other participants (Smiths, CCR, dare I say Jethro Tull, etc). Still, us newbies must get hazed, eh?
Oh yes indeed. I’m sorting the wheat from the chaff as I go…
Actually, there are responses that are other than derision. But thank you for your contribution. Not so much the ‘contrarian’ - I’m not sure the claim is contrary to anything. It is not established that the Beatles (for example) are the best band ever. We just know that a lot of straight men will say so. Their views, despite your assertion, do not define normality
Enjoy your thread. Great way to welcome yourself to the board - some ersatz form of “straight men” bashing with no basis for the argument other than “I’m new here and say this is so.” Knock yourself out.
OK, I take it then that the thread’s real claim is, “Music that does not appeal to straight males tends to be dismissed too easily by straight males.” Is that really in dispute, though? It happened with the “Disco sucks” era, for example.
But I’d also argue that music critics are not just straight males or even straight white males but are typically straight white males who often mistake pretension for profundity and place visceral reaction above virtuosity. So progressive rock gets dumped and raw, arty garage rock gets praised disproportionately. And it’s that narrative that drives these sort of conversations, not just a skewing against simpler, gay/female-friendly music.
I find it best to fill my self with myself, so yes, quite full of myself. That which I absorb from those wiser or more knowledgeable than myself becomes part of my self, so I’m always full of myself. I eagerly await your justification for the suggestion that I should be full of…you? Who?
I actually ‘welcomed myself’ (some might say ‘introduced myself’) to your board with my first thread. I here record my prediction that you won’t like that one either.
I am not ‘bashing’ straight men - I am a straight man, and on a bad day I kinda see what motivates some of the saner MRA-types. There’s a lot of straight-man-bashing out there. I am interested in fighting ignorance. The ignorance of some posters who have dismissed ABBA is staggering - I mean their ignorance of ABBA (‘they just made dance music’, ‘its only pop’, ‘are they a real band?’ - I don’t wish to name and shame). There is also a broader ignorance in the perpetual question of The Best Band Ever, in which straight men dismiss music appreciated by women and gay men. ‘ABBA? No, we guys had this discussion without you, the Beatles won’.
I’m a big ABBA fan, I’ve defended them readily in the past. One week in season one of SNL, Lorne Michaels ‘resigned’. So they brought in ABBA as a musical guest.
The so-called forward thinking cast and writers were aghast. How dare they bring in the mainstream ABBA instead of people like Loudon Wainwright (appearing in the same ep)!!
So they stuck ABBA as the Tiatnic’s band and flooded the set while ABBA lip-synced.
ABBA never got the joke, they were just so damn happy to be there.
Who the **** knows who Loudon Wainwright III is these days?
On one hand, he has indeed started with the traditional annoying first time provocative poster tone. On the other hand, I did read his Jethro Tull comment in the spirit in which he claims he wrote it.
No, as noted above I started with a different thread. You may not care for that one either though. To me, at least, you (and I prefer to address you than to discuss you, but each to his own) have ‘started’ here - by discussing me in front of me. Is that not considered rude here?
The ‘spirit’ in which I ‘claim’ to have written about Jethro Tull is more a case of blatently obvious, if not exemplary, use of grammar. The Tull fan spoke of the band and of Anderson. I replied that I found their music dreary and that he was a legend. It could hardly have been clearer.
What you just described seems like it could have potential as an interesting thread. That’s not what this thread is.
ABBA is wonderful - love 'em. The Beatles are wonderful, too - they just happened to have been more popular and innovative vs. ABBA. That’s not a gay/straight thing, nor is it “determined by straight males” or whatever.
Maserschmidt - got it; cool. You know me - I love a good music discussion and like to think I have a rep on this board for seeking to engage in fun, interesting conversation, especially about music, for over 10+ years here. I have no need to engage the OP in his “look at me, aren’t I cute when I joust with other folks who are trying to make sense of my cunning wordplay.”
I just came back because I saw you and Lobot had posted. I will go back to letting Mr. Full of Himself play wordgames about being full of himself.
I dunno, there are plenty of bands that would have made a great swing band Woodstock.
I have always liked Glenn Miller, I generally prefer small bands so I can experience all the instruments individually but his band managed to do that on a larger scale. I wish I could have shared my enjoyment of that era of music with my parents but they didn’t have a record player when I was growing up.
But I’ll have to go with the Beatles as the group that put out the most diverse and creative music.
Perhaps he was referring to this Jethro Tull. His influence certainly cannot be denied…
As to the subject of the OP: there’s really no quantifiable, objective answer to the question…but if there was, it would without a doubt be The Beatles.
One thing to point out, bands wrote and sang songs to make money. I think people get way into finding deeper meaning and artistic quality to recognize that.
Many bands write songs they like, and then they write songs they know will sell.
Perhaps not, if you’d read what I actually posted and what I posted about what I’d posted. But if you prefer to join some members of the old guard in harumphing at the audiciousness of the nouveau and indulging in the the highly questionable practise of talking about someone, in their presence…well, like I said: wheat from chaff. Thanks for your help.
Meanwhile, the mere repetition that ‘we all know’ the Beatles are best has been challanged not only by me, but by many other posters. It’s just that they all went for other ‘acceptable’ bands. It’s only ABBA that frightens people. Maybe I should launch a kickstarter and make a range of videos…
Those who have attempted to refute the claim that ABBA can hold their own have, largely, demonstrably, spoken from a position of profound ignorance. “I don’t know them, or their work, but we all know the Beatles win. Us straight guys had this conversation already, there’s no need to hear from women and gays”
It’s a shame some men see that as an ‘attack’ - though I suppose it is “fighting ignorance”, something I’ve been doing since I was about 10 - coincidentally, in 1973
ABBA doesn’t “frighten” me. That last post of yours is a grand mishmash of logical fallacies. I don’t care if you’re gay, straight, male, female, leprechaun or “other”. Bring a credible argument and then we’ll talk.
ABBA doesn’t frighten you, which proves that ABBA doesn’t frighten people. Can we at least agree that that’s a logical fallacy? Then you could perhaps point to mine, rather than just claim there are some. That’s two of yours so far.
I brought a credible argument. (Three). It’s not even an uncommon argument, though you may not have seen it illustrated with ABBA before. Nor is yours an uncommon response.
I have not claimed that anyone is homophobic, misogynistic or actively discriminates against fairytale creatures. No-one is suggesting you must like ABBA in the New World Order. Nor do I, ‘full of myself’ as I may be, demand that others reflect my own approach to the world - so let’s suppose that you, me and at least some others in the thread are not on a mission to oppress.
But it’s worth noting that, apart from a link to sales figures, all the evidence has been for ABBA. All the bald assertions have been for the Beatles - it’s received wisdom, after all. But it was received from a congress of straight men, some of whom now say (if you’ll forgive me hammering my point home) "No, no, we discussed this without you. ABBA who? Which one’s Pink?’
That relatively recent society (in the majority developed world) maintained some degree of social separation between men and women (and to a greater degree framed the life strategies of gay men) is not an ‘attack’ on straights or men or the Beatles. It’s just a challenge to the accumulated ignorance evidenced here:
“Do they even play their own instruments? Anyway, you’re wrong, it’s the Beatles.”
…and so on. Plenty of egregious examples. But it seems I’ve misread the social dynamic here, and I must apologise for fighting ignorance (since 1973) before being invisibly ‘promoted’ to such a right by some self-appointed posters.
I’m sorry.
Please don’t challenge that claim, I couldn’t sustain a defence of it with a straight face
