Christ you guys are missing the point. I’m not saying to buy it with the intent of using it non-lethally. I’m just saying there are many potential scenarios where you can reasonably use it non- lethally. There is no point in disputing the aiming aspect; a few inches is a hell of a lot more than 1/3 of an inch. Ceteris Paribus, you’ve got a better chance of hitting with a shotgun. Whether the following scenarios are likely, they are still better served by a shotgun and you have the option of not killing, or the option of at least maiming first:
Gun sighted and ready, robber lunches from 20 ft.
Robber, for whatever reason, has to reload.
Intruder is reaching for a gun that is some distance a way.
I’m not saying I would train people to use it as a non-lethal weapon, but I would certainly like to have the option.
Kid, unless you’re Annie Oakley, you can’t attempt non-lethal shots without putting yourself at significant risk. The guy lurches at you from 20ft, you only get one shot before he’s on you. He tries to reload, he only needs to get one cartridge loaded to kill you. He reaches for a weapon, you get one chance to stop him.
This is not a time to take chances. The target area you’re trying to hit is 12" wide, right in the center of the chest. Outside of that area, you’re going to wing the guy and not hit anything that will stop him in his tracks. That means if you’re 6" off target, left to right, you miss. If you put your target on a small area, leg for example, you have only an inch or three leeway. You get more leeway if you use a shotgun, but it won’t help if the leg shot fails to put him down.
You aim at the center of the chest, not because you want to kill, but because you want to stop, with the highest chance of doing so. The center of the chest gives you the greatest area to hit, with the best chance to knock him down before he can hurt you. He’s not going after a gun or charging you because he wants to injure you, he’s going for the kill.
It is a fact that not everyone who is shot will die. If you use that fact in your decision on how to defend yourself with a gun then it dangerously trivializes the use of lethal force. You say you aren’t treating it as a non lethal weapon but undermine that claim by saying it is “an option.” Using lethal force is the most serious choice anyone will ever have to make. Do not ever diminish that seriousness. If you are forced to use lethal force know that someone is going to die by your hand.
It is also impractical to use a firearm in a non-lethal way even if you did think it was a good idea. In a life or death situation you will be under extreme stress and you will almost certainly not have the fine motor control you need to choose your target so carefully. You will be very fortunate to make a center body mass hit, never mind trying to hit an extremety.
Most people have never shot under stress. They think that shooting a paper target prepares them to defend themselves. Even action shooting provides only a small fraction of the stress of a defensive situation but it’s better than no training at all. Everyone who trys action shooting the first time finds that they are much, much worse when racing against a clock. Shooters who can make cloverleafs all day at 25 yards find they can’t hit 12" plates at twenty feet when they’re in a hurry. Most quickly get past that and reach a point where sight picture, grip, stance, etc. are not something they have to consciously think about so they only have to concentrate on the situation and target. That was true for me but I’m pretty sure it’s vastly harder still when someone is shooting back at me.
Rubystreak, here’s a link to the NRA’s firearms training program. Whether you agree with their corporate politics or not, they are a very knowledgeable source for gun education. I’ve never found the insructors intimidating or to be proselytizing any view in particular. I am a member, so I might not notice that, but they’re very encouraging of women in particular defending themselves safely.
Another good source might be your local gun range. They may not have shotguns available to test, but they will most likely have pistols available for rent, should you decide to go that route and want to try a few on for size. And I think that you might find someone willing to teach you at a shotgun range through that route too.
Not really. There are options and then there realistic options. You will not find a reutable firearms instructor for any organization or agency who teaches or would approve the kind of foolishness you describe.
No you won’t. If you can’t recognize a scenario where non-lethal use of a shotgun is a viable option then you lack creativity. But it doesn’t really matter because a shotgun is still the best choice for the other reasons.
I’m starting to question whether you have ever even seen a real gun. Firearms are letal force. If you aren’t justified and willing to cause your opponent’s death as a result of your need to stop him, you shouldn’t be using a gun. The idea of shooting to wound is foolishness. If it isn’t acceptable either legally or according to your personal morals to kill him in a given situation, there should be no gun in your hands. If you haven’t the will to kill him, you shouldn’t have a gun in your hands.
Attempting the trick shooting you describe is a good way to get yourself killed and provide the criminal with your gun for future misdeeds,
It’s been done but using a rock salt load is very bad for many reasons already stated. Certainly it will retain less KE than lead shot and have less likelyhood of being lethal but the potential to kill and proably maim is still there. Imagine just hitting someone in the eyes with rock salt from a shotgun. Do you think a civil of criminal jury is going to give a shit that you “only used rock salt” when you fired a shotgun at a human being?
I think the slippery slope argument really applies here. A firearm is a deadly weapon in the eyes of the law. There is never a situation where you should treat it as less than that or assign a degree of how deadly it is. “I don’t want a big scary magnum. I prefer my little gun, it’s only a .22” For the purpose of our discussion there is only one degree of dead. A .22 short can make someone just as dead as 12 gauge buckshot.
When my father was traveling all the time, he decided my mother needed a gun. Since my mother had grown up a farm girl, she had a fair acquaintance with firearms.
His choice, a 12-gauge, pump action shotgun, for all the reasons mentioned above. The first shell was birdshot, the second a slug and the third buckshot. He told my mother if she couldn’t stop someone with that mix, all the guns in town wouldn’t help her.
Plus, that sucker was loud. If you’re in a situation where you need to fire a gun in your own home, at least make sure the neighbors can hear it!
And if you’re going to show a gun, you damn well better be ready to shoot to kill.
For home-defense purposes, you will likely only have to shoot across the length of the longest room in your home, if even that far. The “accuracy” of a shotgun really isn’t an advantage at such distances–but the better maneuverability of a handgun definitely is.
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Based on my experience in action shooting I think that the average shooter is goign to be much more accurate with a compact shoulder weapon than a handgun. I’m sure other action shooters can share how many times they’ve seen an otherwise competent shooter get rushed and managed to keep missing large, close targets. Remember, if you miss that bullet has to go somewhere. Will it go through an interior wall or window where it could hit someone you didn’t intend to shoot? Once again, handguns take considerably more skill than long guns especially in stressful situations.
Any shooter who is seriously considering self defense should consider trying action shooting just to find out how much more difficult accuracy is even with a little bit of stress.
Since I’ve been on a rant this whole thread I’ll take on the AK suggestion. I realize it was in jest but I think it is a poor choice because a rifle cartridge, even a somewhat abbreviated one, has too much energy which makes wall penetration a much more serious risk. It also has poor ergonomics since the safety cannot be reached in the normal hand position.
Now if society devolves into a Mad Max style, post apocalyptic landscape after the elections an AK variant would be my first choice
Per Cowgirl’s suggestion, I have e-mailed a local NRA basic firearms instructor about taking a course. Perhaps he’ll even offer adviced about what type of gun I should get. I also know a guy who might sell me his .22 hunting rifle and teach me to shoot it. I’m also considering getting a dog, which might piss off my landlord, so I’m not sure about that option.
Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. I realize this is a serious decision and I am taking it with appropriate consideration.
Handgun. A handgun is an underpowered self-defense weapon only to be used when you’re away from your long guns, such as when you’re traveling, etc. In essence, a handgun is used to fight your way back to your rifle or shotgun. So for home defense, a handgun would be a poor choice IMO. I mean, why would you want to limit yourself to a weapon that is underpowered and has terrible accuracy? Choose a long gun instead.
Rifle. A rifle is the best choice for home-defense in terms of power and accuracy. But it does have drawbacks. First of all, if you have close neighbors or live in an apartment, or family members sleeping in other rooms, a rifle would probably not be a good choice. Secondly, a rifle is not as intimidating as a shotgun (for whatever reason).
It should also be kept in mind that a bolt action rifle would be somewhat slow and cumbersome for home defense use, so if you want to use a rifle for such a purpose, it should be a lever action or semi-auto.
Shotgun. Ah, now we’re getting somewhere! While a shotgun isn’t as accurate as a rifle, so what? We’re only talking about a 10 yard shot at the most. Same goes for power; at the short distances encountered during home-defense operations, the power of a shotgun is very deadly. Furthermore, a shotgun doesn’t have the velocity or penetration of a rifle, so it’s a much better choice if family members and neighbors are in close proximity. And the sight & sound of a racking shotgun is quite intimidating.
So IMO, a shotgun may not be the ideal home-defense weapon, but it is certain the best.
Just to add to the mix what are thoughts on pistol caliber rifles? Marlin discontinued the camp carbines but there are others like the Beretta CX4. Easier to shoot well than a handgun, more than adequate power if you get one in .45 ACP and mild recoil that anyone should be able to handle.
I’ll respectfully disagree about long guns. At night, if I’m awakened by the sound of an intruder, the home court advantage is mine. After calling 911, I’d take my .380 auto from the nightstand, and announce to the intruder that police are enroute, I am armed, and will shoot. Then, I’ll sit there in the dark, because I can tell from every noise in the house where someone is. If you think about it, you probably can in your home, too. If the intruder actually presents an immediate (in my head <20’) threat to me, I’ll cap him. Hydra-Shok hollow points are pretty effective.
Plus, I don’t want to tear up the house with a shotgun. This 64 year old widow had similar feelings.
Pistol caliber carbines, some of them anyway, are a good choice for indoor home defense. You combine the limited penetration of handgun ammo, assuming proper choice of projectile, with the better probability of hits afforded by a long gun. Not all carbines are created equal, of course. For self-defense, I’d favor one of the autoloading variety over a lever action. Under stress, too easy to shortstroke the lever. If for some reason you must have one, the Marlin lever action in .357 magnum is a honey. I’ve been shooting one since the 80’s.
Of the autoloaders available, I think I’d go with the Beretta.
The Marlins, in addition to being discontinued, were known to have some quality control issues. If you can find a reliable one on the used market, it would be a good choice. I would define reliable to include functioning with high performance hollowpoint ammo, not just hardball.
The KelTec carbines are supposedly pretty good, though they have a somewhat quirky manual of arms. If it is the only weapon you are going to own and you are familiar with it, that shouldn’t be an issue.
The Hi-Point carbines apparently are reliable enough and acceptably accurate. They are, however, largely constructed from cast zinc alloy and I would have to question their long-term durability.
Does Ruger still make their pistol-caliber “police carbines?” If so, they’d probably be good choices. There is also the Ruger .44 magnum carbine, but for the OP it might be a bit much in both recoil and penetration.
Overall, I’d choose the Beretta because there are plentiful high-capacity magazines out there. The ergonomics are good, and (from what I’ve heard) they are about as reliable as a mechanical device can be. It’s also got those swoopy good looks.
Incredibly Bad Idea #472: Sitting in the dark and shooting at sounds because you “know where they are.” Use a light, a good one. If you cannot see your target and be absolutely sure that it is a threat to your life you have no business using deadly force. Tactical lights that attach to a weapon are popular for good reason. For the love of mike please don’t shoot if you can’t see your target. Do you wangt to be the defendant in a negligent homicide case becase you shot someone in the dark because of a sound?
Handheld lights are good too and IMHO everyone should own one of these even if you never intend to carry a weapon. TheLadyLion carries a Sure Fire G2 which is available for $35 or less. These are very effective self protection tools. It is virtually impossible to keep your eyes open when looking into the beam even in daylight. I have encouraged her to have her light in her hand and pepper spray on her key ring when she leaves her office at night.
The only thing I’ll say about the not wanting to tear up the house remark, if your life is truly in immenent danger should you be worried about property?
Scumpup, I did some searching and saw the same things you said about the quality of the camp carbines after I discovered that Marlin didn’t make them anymore. The Beretta is a bit too George Jetson looking for my taste but I’m sure it’s very effective. Ruger doesn’t make the .44 semi-auto carbine but they make a similar rifle in lever action now I think. Probably not the best choice because of the .44 mag caliber and small capacity rotary magazine.
