Look at Fox Labs pepper spray. It is quality stuff and issued by a good many law enforcement agencies, including the one at which I work part time. I got hosed with the stuff as part of training and you have my personal assurance that it is some nastyburnyouchy stuff. Please remember, though, that not everybody reacts the same to OC sprays. Some folks go right down, others don’t seem to even notice it.
I’ve got one of these, sans flashlight (soon to be remedied), and I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend as an excellent home defence weapon.
It’s also a ton of fun to shoot. (Though it came with an interchangeable pistol grip/ rifle stock, I’d definitely say stick with the pistol grip- with heavier loads, the gun’s got some pretty good kickback, but nothing that shooting from the hip doesn’t take care of.)
Oh, but let me add: it IS really intimidating looking. And as someone has pointed out in this thread, that may be a good reason to NOT rely to heavily on only this weapon. It may prejudice any potential jurors if the worst should happen and you actually have to make use of it.
Still, though, IMHO, this shotgun is the perfect design for a home defense pump action- light, small, easy to maneuver with, holds 8 rounds (7 the barrel, 1 in the pipe).
:eek: Now that’s a man-stopper!!
I’m not suggesting it but someone does make a combination baton & flashlight called a batlight. It’s about a foot long and bright yellow. It’s not on my Christmas list. I think you are better off with pepper spray and if you are forced into physical contact the defender flashlight was a good investment. For those of you who haven’t seen one the metal bezel over the lens is scalloped to make four points for use as an impact/scraping/gouging weapon. It’s one bad mother (shut your mouth!). Of course it is a flashlight so may not meet every definition of “weapon” but there is some debate about it being allowed as a carry on when you fly.
I think you are taking a very smart approach to your self defense by being very active about it. Any good defense instuctor will tell you the most important thing is not the size of your gun or how good a quick draw artist you are it’s situational awareness. Awareness is described in color codes. Most people live in white. They stumble around, not being aware of what is going on around them. You need to live in yellow, a heightend state of awareness. That doesn’t mean paranoid or jumpy but keeping your head on a swivel so you know things could be potential threats. Do you glance at corners where people might hide or do you have tunnel vision in the direction you are walking? Most strangers are okay but as you approach do you consider an escape route if they aren’t okay or will you find yourself cornered?
FWIW Taser is now promoting a civilian model. Half page ad in the Phoenix paper today (they’re local) showing a price of $999 including one on one training at your house. I’m not eager to be an early adopter. It isn’t intended to be a lethal weapon but there are already numerous lawsuits after deaths from police use.
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- Well then what you want is a handgun, and you would want to look into the legality of carrying it in your car. It is easy to conceal in a car and can be easily operated one-handed.
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…Pepper spray and stun-guns/tasers don’t really work, don’t waste your money. Yea I know the people who sell the stuff insist it works great–but they are lying. Both of these options have a grand history of collossal failures in actual use. Police “use” them mostly by threatening to use them on mildly-combative people–if a cop really think’s you’re dangerous, he draws his handgun on you. [Duh] Ask a cop if they’d willingly give up their firearm for another can of pepper spray or mace, and watch them laugh.
You will know that pepper spray and stun-guns work when police and military stop carrying firearms and start carrying pepper spray and stun-guns instead.
- The value of a firearm is very much in that it is easily capable of inflicting mortal injuries. Any sort of non-lethal option is far less effective. What is your life worth defending with?
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No, I do not want a handgun. Notice that was never on my list of options, for several reasons. First, I need protection NOW and it’ll take far too long for me to wade through the paperwork to get a handgun license. Second, they are more dangerous to me than they are to the criminal if I don’t spend lots of time learning to use it, and like I said, I need it NOW. Third, I just don’t want one.
You ever been pepper-sprayed? I was accidentally and lemme tell ya, it’s bad stuff. You can clear a room with that, no problem. Plus, it’s non-lethal, which would spare me a trip to jail.
Police carry guns and pepper spray because they are used for separate situations. Guns are for situation requiring lethal force, pepper spray is not. It’s not an either/or situation for the police; they can have both, and I can’t right now. My brother uses pepper spray on dogs who menace him. If it can discourage an angry rottweiler (and it can), then it can stop the bastard I’m worried about right now. At least long enough for me to book on outta there.
This black and white view is just too extreme for me. In my home, I would consider a shotgun because I’d be cornered and it would be me or him. If I’m walking to my car, blinding him with a beam of light to the eyes and pepper spraying him will allow me to get away, which is all that I want if I’m outdoors. I will not get a handgun. End of story.
Well, it all depends on your style. Personally, I like a .454 magnum to BLOW THEIR F**CKING BRAINS OUT! But a nice Glock will do as well. 
Rubystreak, your reply was an excellent one. It has become clear to me that you have been taking this matter very seriously and have been doing careful research. I wish that everyone who chose to use a weapon for defense took it as seriously as you. I have equipped my wife with a tactical light and pepper spray for the very reasons you gave. She has some handgun experience and is becoming quite a good shot but not enough to competently use a handgun for defense. I will encourage her to learn more and will send her to classes and when she is ready I will give my blessing but the choice to carry a firearm is hers alone.
Carrying a weapon for defense is serious business. It isn’t a bout macho posturing. People who talk about getting “a big magnum” to “blow people away” scare the living shit out of me.
If anything, carrying a gun is anti-macho. Have any of the big talkers taken a concealed weapons permit class to learn the realities of law? What do you do if you’re carrying a gun and some big palooka muscles his way ahead of you in line? How about if he insults you or your spouse? How would you handle the situation differently than if you didn’t have a gun. I’ll tell you how I would do it. I’d walk away. I would not care if it makes me look like a pussy to onlookers because I backed down. The choice I made to carry a weapon means I have to swallow my pride and go out of my way to avoid confrontations. If you want a witticism how about this: The first rule of gunfights is to never, ever allow yourself to get into a situation where you might be in a gunfight.
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- Well, since your real location is not on your profile, I have no idea where you are located really. So I have no idea how much harder it is to get a handgun. But the reasons that police officers generally carry handguns are the same reasons you should too.
…And I am most curious now: why do you think a longarm is less dangerous to you than a handgun? A revolver has only two controls, counting the trigger. That’s one less control than a rifle will have, because revolvers don’t have safeties–they don’t need them. Revolvers are the simplest guns of all to operate.
- Well, since your real location is not on your profile, I have no idea where you are located really. So I have no idea how much harder it is to get a handgun. But the reasons that police officers generally carry handguns are the same reasons you should too.
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- Pepper-spray and stun-guns simply do not disable as well as they are claimed. Yes I have been sprayed, and stun-gun-shocked as well. Ever been shot with a 9mm or .45 to the chest? I have not. Lots of other people have, but most of them aren’t here to talk about it. And considering these things–which do you think an attacker is going to be more afraid of?
- Well, this then is the cause of our differences. You seem more concerned about not hurting the attacker than in keeping the attacker from hurting you. I do not feel I should have to tolerate anyone physically attacking me, at all. And you are assuming that pepper spray always works right, when there is a long history of it not doing so. Mildly curious animals and people are discouraged by it, but extremely detirmined animals and people tend to ignore it. All police officers know this, but they won’t normally say it. They want you to think it works great, but they know it does not–so they still carry firearms.
- You can do as you wish–but the message that using a non-lethal weapon gives to an attacker is that they are essentially free to return and try again later. That doesn’t sound much like safety to me.
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I think I could hit someone in the dark when I’m waking up from a deep sleep with a shotgun more easily than a revolver. I don’t want to carry a handgun with me everywhere, and actually, I can’t-- I’m a public school teacher and it’s not kosher to have one on school grounds. That poses some problems, no?
My goal in an encounter with an attacker is to get away unharmed. That includes not being an inexperienced handgun user who winds up losing the gun in a melee with a much larger, possibly more experienced opponent; it also includes not being arrested and having to stand trial for murder, dig? Believe me, it’s not squeamishness about killing someone who wanted to hurt me, it’s actually a sense of self-preservation in general, with an eye to the bigger picture.
I don’t think I should have to tolerate a person physically attacking me-- that doesn’t mean I have to carry a handgun, though. It’s not as black and white as you insist. I will do everything I can to avoid harm while also avoiding prosecution for said avoidance; having my handgun taken away from me and used on me is also something I’d like to avoid. I don’t give a flying fuck about my attacker’s health. I care about mine. I’m not Dirty Harry Callahan.
Handguns have a long history of being turned on their owners or their owners’ loved ones. Not a risk I’m willing to take. Don’t forget that the killer flashlight will be used in conjunction with the pepper spray. I’d like a cite on the fact that pepper spray doesn’t work too, if you don’t mind, in the interest of fighting my ignorance.
I find that really hard to believe. A mild dose of pepper spray made me miserable. I can’t imagine pursuing some complicated or directed course of action after that, but maybe we have different ideas of incapacitated.
When I want to send a message, I’ll write a letter. My priority is my own safety and I don’t think a handgun is in my best interest. If I foil an attack on my person and get away safe, then mission accomplished. JMO, YMMV.
As a possible counterweight to the folks who keep talking about blowing people away, I offer this news item:
Condensing some details, two men got into a “road rage” altercation in a shopping center. After the tussle started, one announced that he was a U.S. Marshal and drew his gun. The other guy jumped in his car and took off, dialing 911 on the way, at which point the marshall opened fire and killed the driver with a bullet in the back. He has been charged with first degree murder and multiple other felonies.
The point is that you can’t just kill people at will, even if you feel scared, even if you feel threatened, and even if you’re a cop. Rubystreak’s measured approach sounds pretty sensible.
I disagree. In a defensive situation, a gun is simply the best tool for stopping someone. Any death is incidental.
IMO, a long gun is much safer than a handgun.
I own a number of long guns and do a lot of shooting. I have a range set up beside the house, and buddies come over all the time for target practice. In addition to long guns, most also bring handguns. I look forward to it, as it gives me an opportunity to shoot handguns. (I don’t own a handgun.)
I am very safety conscience, and insist every shooter follows Jeff Cooper’s Four Safety Rules. The most common infraction is Rule #2: Never let your muzzle cover anything you don’t want to destroy. This usually occurs when a person accidentally points a muzzle at someone. I see it happen three or four times every session. (“Hey! Watch where your muzzle is pointing!!”)
My point is this: Most of the time, Rule #2 is violated with a handgun, not a long gun. Why? A handgun is very short and light, and a simple flick of the wrist will swing the muzzle in just about any direction. By contrast a long gun has a lot more rotational momentum, and its muzzle tends to stay pointed downrange. Even inexperienced shooters seem to master Rule #2 in a short period of time. But only with long guns.
I am an experienced shooter, and I notice it even with myself; I have little problem keeping the muzzle of a long gun pointed downrange, but I must be very conscientious when handling a handgun. I have to tell myself over and over: “Keep muzzle pointed in safe direction, keep muzzle pointed in safe direction …”
So while a handgun is not inherently more dangerous than a long gun, it takes a lot more practice to learn how to safely handle a handgun.
Semantics. “Lethal Force” is any technique which may cause death or serious injury. Using a firearm to “stop” someone is Lethal Force. Period. It matters not if the person dies, if you hit him in the chest, the leg or if you miss entirely. Shooting at someone is Lethal Force. If you shoot at someone, you better be justified in using lethal force or you can be arrested. It doesn’t matter if you miss and the guy runs away.
Also, I’ve been reading a lot of nonsense about Pepper Spray in this thread. Here’s the Straight Dope on pepper spray.
Holy Crap it hurts. God make the burning stop. I would rather go back and sit in a gas chamber (done that) or be shot with a Taser (yup that too) than be sprayed again (couple times to date)! And let me second whoever suggested FoxLabs! That stuff is awesome!!
Would I rather have pepper spray than a pistol in a lethal situation? Of course not! But one is much more likely to be in a NON-lethal situation. That’s what is so great about pepper spray. It is non-lethal force!! If you’re walking to your car at night and some bozo keeps bothering you. And he wont leave you alone and he starts getting freaky and you’re pretty scared… you can’t fucking shoot him!
But that doesn’t mean you have to suck it up and be scared or let him touch on you and stuff. Or if he’s pushing you, and you’re trying to get away, but he wont stop trying to pick a fight with you… you can’t shoot him for that. SPRAY HIS ASS! The great thing about pepper spray is it can be used in a wide variety or scenarios where a firearm could not.
Being physically able to exert nonlethal physical force, I don’t carry pepper spray. Just a gun. But there are millions of smaller, weaker men and women out there who don’t have that luxary. I totally recommend pepper spray for them. Sure I recommend a firearm too, but a pistol wont help you in so many situations. Pepper spray is a must.
And the thing about cops would rather have their guns than pepper spray. That’s simply inane! Cops use the Taser or pepper spray all the freaking time. And how often do they use their guns? Way less. How many cops do you have to ask before you find one who has used his pepper spray or taser? One! Every single cop has pepper sprayed someone. How many cops will you have to ask before you find one who has actually shot someone???
Pepper spray is a nonlethal tool that is a necessary tool for law enforcement. Pepper Spray can be used at Verbal NonCompliance. If a cop says “Move over there” and a person refuses, he can be sprayed. If a guy is fighting and resisting, a gun isn’t going to do shit. Why? Because the cop would not be justified in shooting. But he can spray the fucker. And guess what… it will make the guy not want to fight as bad…
Pepper Spray is an excellent self defense tool. Provided a person buys some good stuff, (not some crap that goes on a key chain that you bought at Wal Mart). Practice shooting it once when you get it so you know what to expect. I recommend taping a paper plate to a tree in your yard at face level. Practice shooting it. Buy one extra canister of spray just to practice with. DONT SPRAY INTO THE WIND. Check your expiration dates and use it up for practice when it expires and buy a new canister!!
Is pepper spray a good replacement for a firearm? No. Of course not. It’s a nonlethal weapon. It is intended to supplement a firearm, not replace it. But it can help you out of many nonlethal and - if you happen to not have a gun - many lethal situations. If you don’t feel comfortable in physical confrontation, carry pepper spray.
If you want to protect yourself from a potentially deadly situation - like where a guy is coming at you with a baseball bat or a knife or something? Then get a gun.
Bear_Nenno: I understand what you’re saying about semantics. But – and I’ve stated this numerous times on the SDMB – never utter the words “kill”, “death”, or “lethal” to anyone after you have justifiably defended yourself with a gun. As an example, do not tell the detectives, “He was threatening my life, and in an act of self defense I killed him.” Never use the word “kill,” as it will be used against you in court. If you feel you must say something to the detectives, tell them “He was threatening my life, and in an act of self defense I stopped him.” Your goal was to stop, not kill. Any death is incidental. Utter the words “kill”, “death”, or “lethal” to anyone after a defense-related shooting, and the attorneys will eat you alive.
Bear_Nenno and Crafter_Man, no one arguing that the primary purpose of shooting is to kill someone. The problem is that using lethal force to stop someone is only appropriate and legal in a very narrow set of circumstances.
Detective: So what happened
Shopkeeper: Those kids were coming in to read the comic books, I’ve told them to stop. They get the pages all dog eared an grimy so no one will buy them. So I stopped them.
Detective: With a .44 magnum?
Shopkeeper: What else was I gonna stop them with?
Detective: Oh, a broom maybe? You killed three twelve year old boys!
Shopkeeper: That was only incidental to stopping them.
An over the top illustration but it shows disparity of force. It points out the disadvantage to only having a gun for defense, it becomes your only option. Anyone who carries a gun for defense should have the primary goal of making sure they never have to use it. That’s why I think the defender flashlight and pepper spray are appropriate for anyone, whether they carry a gun or not.
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- Yes but this is a poor example of anything, because it has nothing to do with self-defense, which is what is being discussed: if the shopkeeper was being robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint (threatened with a lethal weapon) or assaulted, what should he do?
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The problem I see with the concept here is that some people are saying that “most situations are non-lethal, so who needs a lethal weapon?”…which in itself is true— but then, the problem with this plan is that the nature of being attacked is that you don’t know the attacker’s intentions beforehand, and a lethal weapon can usefully prevent lower-intensity situations as well as save your life in higher-risk ones. Not so much by being used, but by being displayed, and showing an attacker that they may be gambling with your life, but by escalating the situation they are also risking their own as well.
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I agree that for legal and financial reasons it is generally best to get away without using any sort of weapon on anybody–the police get paid to do that, not anyone else–but it is not the police’s job to protect you so much as it is to try to capture assailants after the fact. And if the assailant killed you, even the police’s complete success then isn’t going to help you any.
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As far as what is legal to carry where–you should very-much check your local laws before spending money on anything. In my state, pepper spray and stun-guns are considered lethal weapons, just like firearms. As well as lots of other ordinary objects, if they are used as such: baseball bats, tire irons, etc. If you asked me in person why this is, I would likely say something unbecoming about how Cook county politicians are afraid of the very people who elect them into office–but here let me just say that “in Illinois, you have basically no legal options for carrying an effective weapon of any kind” and leave it at that.
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But lastly–if you cannot phsychologically deal with the reality of physically harming an attacker, then your entire mentality is wrong and you should not carry any sort of weapons, because you will not be effective with them anyway.
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Displaying a weapon often requires the same justification as shooting. In Arizona drawing a firearm is using deadly force under the law. If you aren’t justified in shooting you aren’t justified in drawing (with the following exception).
This example from the CCW renewal I just took. Arizona has a quirk in the law that allows someone to use threat of deadly force during a break in where only property crime has been committed but not to actually shoot. The instructor pointed out that at that point the burglar would be fully justified in shooting you in self defense. He suggested it was better to let the thief have the TV. Your insurance will buy you a new one but it won’t let you get out of jail. Arizona may be the wild west but deadly force is not okay for mere property crime where no life is at risk.
There are plenty of situations where having an option other than a gun is a good one. Dark parking lots are one. Say you see someone who is a potential threat. Soot first and ask questions later? How about shining a light as a first step? A bright light will startle and disorient the person and if there isn’t a threat then no harm done. Say the person keeps approaching but has no weapon? Pepper spray may be a logical next step. It’s a serious one but much better than shooting someone who doesn’t understand english and was only trying to give you the wallet you dropped. If you’re using a tactical light correcty the person approaching you won’t be able to see any weapon you are holding.
If you plan to use a weapon for defense please take a concealed weapons course if possible. Even if you never intend to carry concealed or even carry outside your house you’ll learn a lot of valuable information about the law and self defense.
Glad I live in a red state. :rolleyes:
As mentioned by Padeye, a citizen cannot use a firearm to simply “deescalate” the situation. Only a cop can do that. You can’t pull out a gun because your harrasser ‘might’ have a knife. Sorry, but you just can’t. Not until he pulls out a knife can you pull out your gun. That sucks, I know. That’s why pepper spray is great in that situation. Because you can spray him before he pulls out a knife. Spray and run away. If he follows and pulls out a knife, now you can use your pistol.
But you CANNOT pull out a gun if your life or another’s life is not immediately in danger.
nitpick: It’s possible based on a huge size difference or disability or something for a victim to use deadly force to protect himself even though the attacker was unarmed. Say if a 300 pound man was harrassing a 90 pound woman. She might say, leave me a lone I have a gun (but not pull it out). If he continued she might get away with pulling it out and using it. But only because his size against hers counts as a “deadly weapon”.
You did read my whole post right? It seems like you are correcting me, though you’re saying exactly what I ‘tried’ to say. Granted, It took me 6 paragraphs to get the point across, and you did better than me in like three sentences. But we’re in agreement about firearms not being much use against a non-lethal aggressor.
Asking a cop if he “would rather have his pepper spray or his pistol” is like asking him if he “would rather have shoes for his feet or tires for his patrol car”.