Andros:
In any other pit thread discussion it would not detract. In this particular specific one, I think it might.
If so, it’s efficacy is dubious.
I wasn’t looking to call out vulgarity or insults in general – those are ubiquitous in the Pit. I called out a dehumanizing and misogynistic slur because I think those reflect a particularly negative aspect of our society and culture – one which I think it’s criticial we as a society work on improving. It really has stuck in my head for the last 6 years, for whatever reason. I’ve also called out such slurs used against conservative women.
And while I appreciate the friendly and courteous discussion we’ve been having, I still think your description of Fluke was sexist, just as calling an outspoken black activist a racial slur would be racist. Different tones of discussion “work” in different circumstances, and with different people. It seemed to me during our conversation that you were making a real effort to explain your views, which IMO deserved a real effort on my part in explaining mine. I still appreciate it, even as I think that you might have some subconscious biases about women’s behavior that you’re either unaware of, or unaware that they might be harmful or bigoted.
I don’t think you “deserve” being called “trash” (I’ll single that insult out in particular because it’s the one IMO that might edge across the line into dehumanizing, even though I don’t think it has any significant historical baggage attached like various other misogynistic and racial slurs that we’ve been discussing). At the same time, I’ve never been called a slut or a similar misogynistic slur – many or most women that I know have been. So I wouldn’t feel comfortable judging someone for rhetorically lashing out at your continued defense or perhaps minimization of your usage of that slur.
I recognize that I’m more likely to notice bigoted and dehumanizing language coming from those politically on the “other side” than on my side. I also generally don’t jump into other people’s arguments unless I feel particularly strongly and confidently about something… I feel very strongly and confidently that it’s wrong to use misogynistic and racial slurs; I feel much less strongly and confidently about when it’s wrong to use the insults and negative descriptors used against you, which I think fall into a different category.
All in all, an awful lot of words about a flippant use of a slur, criticism of that usage, and insults directed at you for your usage and explanation. But that’s one of the things the Dope is for.
That’s a really good answer, and it helps to clarify your position.
I’m typically more concerned about individuals than groups, since you can’t really hurt a group since it’s not a rational entity. You can only hurt the individual members of that group.
That’s typically where I stand, up until and unless I sense that there is actual targeting going on, where Member(s) of an individual group are being targetted not on their own merits but because they are members of a group.
So, if an individual insult spills over a little into a group, it is not necessarily an attack on the group.
There are a lot of people, crotchety old men, comedians, etc who consider themselves to be refreshingly free of bullshit pc constraints, who look at somebody’s Race, gender, religion, sexuality, literally every feature about them, as nothing more than a handle on which to hang insults, and they may use the most vile and loaded insults casually and without venom.
Then too, I saw at the end of the series “generation kill” a documentary with marines talking about marine culture, and the fact that they routinely do the same thing as described above, and say these things to each other all the time because they are “brothers” and this brings them closer. The constant highlighting of their differences desensitizes them to them.
I do not subscribe to or fall into either of the above categories. I just don’t think it’s as big a deal, and am more concerned with intent. The power is in the intent, not in the words.
We have beat this dead horse to the point where I think we should stop and consider opening up a hamburger stand.
This brings up an interesting point. It is
Different on this board. If you lean Republican, conservative even a little bit, you experience a constant stream of hostility directed at you and your beliefs.
It is affecting.
Well, to be fair, and coming back to the topic of the thread, I have yet to see a republican here who has given me any indication that they’re better than anti-democratic, dishonest scum I’d rather not share a planet, let alone a country with. You’re just about the best of them, and here you are, making the case that because women aren’t oppressed any more, you have to call a woman you disagree with a, quote, “brazen slut” because otherwise you wouldn’t be taking them seriously. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you? What the fuck is wrong with your entire fucking political movement?
Right now, Georgia is disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of (primarily non-white) voters in an attempt to stop a congressional race from being close. They’re not subtle about it; they have barely the subtlest fucking figleaf of an excuse for the shit they’re pulling. The better conservative responses are arguing that it’s not really disenfranchisement, because if 700,000 people are too lazy or stupid to return a direct mail postcard, that’s their fault. The worst (Bricker in particular) are just gloating that it’s legal and they’ll probably get away with undermining democracy in Georgia.
You guys get abused because you’re stupid, dishonest, offensive, and honestly just terrible fucking human beings. Or, at least, the side we see of you is that of a terrible, terrible fucking human being. (Apparently Clothahump is a nice guy in person? For the 6 or so years we coexisted on this forum, I never saw a single fucking redeeming quality from that shitbag.) So don’t be surprised if we see you basically making the world a worse place for everyone and respond with vitriol. Just be glad we’re not jaded enough to do more.
You’ll live.
I would guess you would think I have a problem with promiscuity.
nm
I wouldn’t be so specific – maybe, or maybe the issue is broader.
Oddly enough, no conservatives ever responded to my views (which were requested by a conservative poster) on immigration from several pages ago:
Well, I’ll take a shot at an answer to that one. You are mixing up immigration and illegal entry. There is a big difference. Should we be encouraging more immigration? Absolutely. It’s what made this country great, and, frankly, we desperately need immigration to fill many of the technical jobs that are going unfilled with our own population. Immigrants also build new businesses…and, in fact, several of our large mega-corporations were built by immigrants both today and in the past.
But if someone is trying to enter the US illegally, yeah, border patrol should detain them because, you know, that’s why we have borders and stuff. Not like the US is the only country that doesn’t like folks wandering into their country illegally.
I’m no conservative, though perhaps I rate that, but that’s my take. You guys found any better conservatives yet? The discussion has gotten pretty wild and wooly so it’s hard to judge…
Well, I’m undergoing psychoanalysis here, in an attempt to identify and uncover my hidden, non specific biases against women. After I receive extensive re-education at a left wing gulag (they have gulags in Berkely?). It is hoped that I might qualify as a good conservative. Gigobuster says I am the best they’ve got so, I guess it’s all riding on me. It’s a lot of pressure, and madmonk is being mean to me which makes me nervous and sad, and I’m afraid that might affect my re-education.
How was your day?
I don’t have a problem with what you said. The only modification I’d add is that I don’t think that there is no downside to immigration as a general statement. There are problems that can occur and therefore I’m in favor of limitations on immigration.
I requested them because I didn’t know what your views were. You stated them. In short order, I then noted that I sure liked that answer of yours to my first question before saying “as for the second” when mentioning my own views on the second, which you copy-and-pasted when replying in turn with an okay-but-what-if post.
Didn’t know that’d strike you as odd. Mea culpa.
I’m not informed enough on immigration to have a rational opinion.
Separating parents from kids sounds like a terrible idea. I’ve heard child trafficking being thrown out as a need for verification that they really are their kids, and the reason why there is separation. I have no idea if this is total bullshit or a valid reason. Is anybody really in favor of separating parents from kids? To the extent that it is happening, is it an unfortunate necessity that happens occasionally as part of a process to protect the kids, an example of heartless naziism or what? I don’t know enough.
The Dream Act as written and described by Wikipedia seems cool. I like that it seems rigidly defined, and requires specific criteria be met that demonstrate value to this country for children that were brought here as minors and so have no responsibility for the illegal nature of their status. If anything it seems slightly more punitive than necessary, making the kids jump through more hoops than necessary. As it stands it seems right for kids 16-18, I’d say it needs less restrictive for kids 12-16, and anybody brought here earlier than that without a conviction should be made a citizen.
I’m not sure how you play out chain immigration on this. I’m not as sympathetic to adults who come here illegally as they take the place of and disincent those who follow the rules.
As for the attitude you espouse, I agree with it with the proviso that you never say “never.” I can imagine scenarios where a country’s problems could result from immigration. I beleive France is having some of these now.
Again, this is not an area that I have studied or thought about deeply so no jumping up my ass.
When you start to feel this way, it’s a bad sign. It means it is time to leave the echo chamber andgo and immerse yourself in the media and message boards of the opposition, and get some perspective.
That is exactly why I am here again after a protracted absence.
I’ve done this before. The epiphany you get is depressing and unwelcome, but true and necessary. You see the flaws of your own ‘team’ perfectly reflected in the things you despise most in the opposition.
No, it means you’re capable of reading and interpreting the news. Republicans don’t want to admit to their massive voter suppression campaigns, but they’re really, really obvious and well documented. Anyone who identifies as a Republican today is explicitly endorsing a party that is opposed to democratic ideals like ‘citizens should be allowed to vote for leaders’.
“Echo chamber”? No, I got this view by listening to people like you. And I’ve gone to boards with a larger republican presence. You know what the main difference is? Any rational discussion becomes virtually impossible, buried beneath impenetrable layers of bullshit. Conservatives don’t come off better - au contraire, they see considerably less checks on their bullshit, and so have no problem being even worse than usual. At least here we ban the fucking racists.
But I have virtually nothing positive to say about almost any conservative here. You included. If there is such a thing as a “good conservative”, well, good job hiding them so well.
What?!? And here I was thinking we were e-buds.