I’ve been reading up on Tim Wise and his critiques on race and racism. First off, I do applaud his work and appreciate his advocacy. This thread should not in anyway be seen as a slam against him or white people like him, especially since he himself has promoted awareness of the very same phenomenon that I’ve observed.
It often seems to me that blacks and other minorities who write and speak out against racism tend to be dismissed, ignored, or reviled by the mainstream in a way that white antiracists are not. While I guess this should not be too surprising (since one would have to believe we’re actually in a post-racial society to be surprised about such thing, and I don’t have that belief), I do think both this issue and its negative implications are neglected when people talk about discrimination. It makes me wonder: Are people aware that they are biased in this way? Or are they aware of it and find a way to rationalize it?
Unfortunately, I don’t think this board is immune from this bias. Take your average thread in which there’s a heated exchange about race, racism, or racially-tinged current events. What I’ve observed is that self-identified black posters receive the bulk of the ad hominem attacks, provocative rebuttals, and/or dismissive retorts, while posters who express similar views but are assumed to be white (or non-black) are either ignored in the debate or engaged with in a non-hostile manner. If someone doubts the validity of this observation, I can try to bring some cites to the fore. But before you challenge me on this, take a look at this twitter user’s reported experience before and after she pretended to be a white guy. Again, the idea that the acceptability of one’s ideas changes based on the perceived race of the messenger is not new or particular surprising, and yet it still obnoxious and frustrating that it can be so blatant at times.
So tell me. Do you think you are under the influence of the bias I’m talking about? If Tim Wise was a black guy instead of white, are you 100% sure you’d view him the same way? Do you find yourself taking critiques of racism more seriously when they come from white sources? If so, do you have a rational basis for doing so?
Well, since my professor in college called my attention to the phenomenon of White Authority (the idea that an issue affecting a minority is not serious until someone white advocates for it) I know that I try as much as possible to allow those with the actual experience to lead and inform discussions centered on racial and gender grounds and only interject my opinion when I truly think it’s relevant or to take on a more moderating or process-oriented role to keep the discussion moving non-contentiously.
I’m obviously not 100% sure of everything, and even though as a straight white American male who takes the progressive/anti-discriminatory side of just about every argument, I’d be more likely to be the beneficiary of the bias, I do think there’s a pretty straightforwardly rational basis for it: I’m making (from the anti-anti-racist’s perspective) an admission against self-interest.
Nobody can tell me that I believe America is systemically racist toward black people or that I support affirmative action because I’m black, or that I only think rape culture exists because I’m a woman, or that I only think the only opposition to same sex marriage is homophobic because I’m gay. I don’t think it’s the ultimate in authority as compared to, say, actual subject matter knowledge, but I don’t think it’s irrational.
I also think it’s super clear that a lot of anti-anti-racists are going to in fact just be racists, and they’re gonna have their own reasons not to be nice to self-identified minorities.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying one reason white antiracists have an easier time being listened to by whites is that they have nothing to gain by arguing their position, so they are seen as more objective and in turn, more credible and accurate.
I don’t disagree that this thought process is at work to a certain degree, but I don’t think it tells the whole story. Women and minorities have had a long history of being dismissed as hysterical, unreasonable, and less fact-driven than white men pretty much about everything–not just as it relates to perceptions about discrimination–so what would prevent these attitudes from influencing the respect afforded to essayists and commenters? And let’s be clear, I’m not just talking about racists who barely contain their racism. I’m talking about even people who see themselves as socially conscious and progressive.
I don’t know that I have truly seen this type of bias on the Dope. Mostly because I don’t think I could name more than a handful of posters’ races/ethnicities if I tried. I think Blackberry is black, and Anamika is Indian. And that dude who always starts the strange hypotheticals and polls… I think he is black. Right? Otherwise, I have no idea.
But I certainly do not deny that this is a real thing. I guess I’d just want more examples from the Dope. I do agree with Jimmy, though, about the self-interest argument. While most racists in their minds would say I respect Jimmy’s opinion more because it is not based on self-interest, deep down they are just racist assholes.
How many people actually know what race other posters on the Dope are? I can’t say as I do, with some minor exceptions - unless they make a point of saying so, how would anyone ever know?
I suspect that if you are the target of “ad hominem attacks, provocative rebuttals, and/or dismissive retorts” on a message board, it may well have less to do with “unconcious bias”, and more to do with good old-fashioned “being trolled”, having self-identified to would-be trolls that you are (a) Black; and (b) care deeply about issues of race and racism.
Trolls won’t go after self-identified White anti-racist arguers as much becaise they are less likely to get a rise out of them.
I can only speak for myself. I am reluctant to post anything regarding race here. Occasionally I do, but not nearly as much as I wish I could. Why? Because this board has a collective jerking knee when it comes to anything racial. There’s only so many times before you can be dismissed or condescended to before you just give up and decide to stick to trivial topics. It’s better for the blood pressure.
Right. Not to trivialize this, but if I say that Florida State was cheated by the referees in a football game, in theory, that position should rise or fall on its own merits. In practice, people are going to roll their eyes and point out that I’m a Florida State alum. If I say that about a team that I have no allegiance to, or even more powerfully if I say it about Florida State’s opponent, that has more rhetorical force, because the most superficially obvious reason for me to be saying it is out the window.
Well, nothing does prevent that. And I don’t think it tells the whole story, either; I mean, Jamie Nesbitt Golden wasn’t getting twitter responses calling her a black cunt because she was being suspected of an attribution bias. But I do think it’s a rational basis.
So do you bring up racial topics all the time in real life? Seems to me, you are going to get some similar knee jerking or “let me get the fuck outta here” responses.
Sooo, " I am reluctant to post anything regarding race here" doesn’t really stand as a comparison to anything? Or is there some other general interest website where race issues are a totally benign subject?
All it takes is for a poster to mention it once for it to make it into the consciousness of any poster with a decent memory. Race is just like any other detail that people keep track of. Just like a parent doesn’t necessarily have to make a point of talking about their kids for other posters to know they have them (for instance, I remember you mentioning in a old thread that you have a daughter…so that little detail is filed away in the “Malthus” folder in my brain and surfaces whenever I see your username in a thread about parenting), a poster’s race can make an impression the same way.
On this board, posters often assume they’re dealing with a white male unless told otherwise. So while you may not "“know” the race of a lot of posters, that doesn’t mean you treat them like racial wildcards.
I think you are overrating forumite memory - at least, I know you are in my case … and just for the record, I am completely daughter-less, which calls yours somewhat into question as well. At least, I think I lack a daughter!
My point is that you are attributing to bias what could more easily be attributed to intention - the intention to get a rise out of you.
It means that if I want to talk about racial stuff, I go to other message boards. I usually don’t come here, not unless I want a fight.
Sometimes it seems like I can’t type two words around here without someone arguing with me, even when it comes to something as personal as my message board habits.
It’s very hard to be aware of your own biases. It’s just psychologically unpleasant.
But I think the phenomenon you’re talking about is real. What I see is that when a person of color talks about a racist or potentially racist incident, it’s often assumed that they are biased or irrational or oversensitive, or even worse, vindictive or dishonest and manipulative. When a white person does it, at worst he or she might be a stupid liberal. The implication is that only white people can be unbiased about race, which is pretty staggering. And of course the same people who reflexively dismiss claims of racism are the most likely to use loaded language when they’re dismissing not just the complaints but the idea that racism exists in any kind of significant way.
oh for pete’s sake, I am not arguing with you. I was asking exactly what your point was. Is the SDMB particularly bad when it comes to discussing race issues?
It is not. If I am “knee jerking” at all, it’s that race issues are a subject that rarely get’s calm rational discussion anywhere.
I believe the wrath and volume of race topic responses have less to do with race of the poster than they do verifiable, credible facts and emotionless banter. If someone is just venting emotional spew without merit, name calling, or exaggerated examples, then they’re not going to be respected regardless of race.
I don’t know if it’s “particularly” bad compared to other boards dominated by white posters. But bad for monstro’s blood pressure, yes.
And this exchange with you has been bad for my blood pressure. You can’t seriously say you weren’t arguing with me by starting a sentence off with “sooooo”. If that’s not an invitation for a slap-down, I don’t know what is.
At least, I think I lack a daughter! 