Big Love 02.22 They were petting rats

Dewey Finn. I was afraid someone would ask me that. Answering questions about mormon doctrine as an ex-mormon is like tap dancing through a minefield on this board. So, disclaimer: Whatever I am about to post will be immediately refuted as bullshit/nonsense by some True Blue Ultra-Devout Believing Mormon. It will happen; it always does. (See Also: The ‘Ask the ex mormon missionary’ thread. Mormons popped in and started citing apologist, non-canon sources, and IMHO, really detracted from the voice of the former mormon, most of whom are still trying to recover from what we viewed as membership in a cult.)

That said, I particularly enjoyed that discussion on Big Love, because the points that Bill brought up – and the references he cited – are absolutely accurate in my opinion. The claim that Joseph’s Myths’ wives were all widows and orphans is simply not true. I wholeheartedly believe that the LDS church still attempts to whitewash the polygamy of the early church, and that they also turn a blind eye to what they started, which has really grown in the southwest. Remember, the LDS and the FLDS differ only in the official list of successive prophets. They both use the same canon as scripture: the Book of Mormon. As much as they try to separate themselves from each other, the bottom line is… it’s all the same doctrine. The FLDS merely live it the way it is written and the mainstream LDS eschewed polygamy in order to gain statehood and attain mainstream popularity. Sometimes Bill spouts doctrine or makes choices that make me go hruh? and then I go look up the scriptures he’s basing his decisions on and I realize that the mainstream LDS sort of spun the doctrine for me as a teenager. Once I read it as an adult, I can see why the Hendricksons interpret certain principles the way they do. (That and Barb was raised mainstream LDS, but Bill was raised FLDS, so their particular family doctrine seems to be a weird hybrid of both.)

You can go to familysearch.org and look up Joseph’s Myth’s ancestral record file. It lists some, but not all of his alleged wives, which included 14-year-old Fanny Alger, who was brought into the house as a babysitter/housekeeper but ended up being told that if she didn’t marry Joseph’s Myth, then her entire family would be consigned to Outer Darkness (mormon hell) forever and ever unto eternity, amen. She was not an orphan because her parents and siblings were threatened with damnation if she did not submit and marry. There’s diary evidence of this. What is a 30-something year old man doing marrying young teenagers?

Again, look up the myth that the average marrying age was much lower in the 1830s. Simply not true, the average age in the mid-19th century (for first marriage) was around 18 or 19.

Some of Joseph’s Myth’s wives were already married (you can trace their records through his at familysearch.org) to other men at the time he married them. He sent their husbands to England “on missions” and married the wives while they were gone.

Anyway, Bill Hendrickson cited several authors (I think he said “Read Brodie and ___” I missed the second author) from which his assertions came, which only proved to me that A) some of the Big Love writers are either active mormons, ex-mormons, or really, really, really know their shit, and B) these authors are not completely out to lunch, making up crap out of whole cloth.

I think you can find info about Joseph’s Myth’s wives at:

No Man Knows My History - Fawn Brodie
In Sacred Loneliness - Todd Compton
Insider’s View of Mormon Origins - Grant Palmer

There are a lot of people who know much more about this than I do – I’ll go fishing for some links at the Exmormon Foundation’s website if you’re interested. Polygamy was not my mountain to die on in regard to disagreeing with mormon doctrine, so I am parroting back to you what I’ve read there. I think I can come up with really precise arguments, complete with citations, for Bill’s assertions to the Evil Dreaded Baptist Preacher. I just have to go digging. Stop me if you don’t care that much; I have carpal tunnel.

“Baptists are all scary, honey.” :smiley:

Correction:

Fanny Alger was 16 when she married Joseph’s Myth.

Helen Mar Kimball was 14.

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/

I also read that some of Joseph Smith’s wives were not at all widows-- in fact, they were still married to their first husbands when Smith married them. Apparently his first wife was not OK with his other marriages either. Smith was hardly leading the idyllic polygamous life.

Dogzilla, as interesting as I find your experiences with Mormonism, it doesn’t really reflect well on you or your beliefs to keep saying “Joseph’s Myth” over and over. It’s really only funny once.

Especially since it was Cousin Catherine petting the rat.

Man, I have to wholly agree. This episode was like a emotional punch to the gut, just a real wallop. It almost felt like the crammed too much into it, but it was still an amazing episode. Next week is going to be a letdown.

I watched the scene again because I was curious and it’s hard to tell. It looks more like she’s looking behind the car than at the box of soot, except that it’s obviously a deliberate look and maybe it’s supposed to be significant. Somehow I completely missed that the reason Margene forgot her mom on the roof of the car was because she was distracted by Ben’s love letter. Of course that also satisfied my confusion over how it got in the car.

Thank you for your comments.

FYI, Dustin Lance Black, the screenwriter of Milk, is one of the writers on this show and grew up Mormon. The executive producers are Mark V. Olsen and Will Scheffer. They do not appear to be Mormon, although the Wikipedia article on the show says they researched the subject for three years.

My, they’re definitely allowing the cover to slip off the festering underlayer of the idyllic family, aren’t they?

Is it wrong that I felt nothing but relief for Sarah?

Also, I would like to register my extreme amusement that all the scenes with the Indians on the riverboat casino were taped in Sacramento, California, aboard the Delta King, with Old Sacramento and the Tower Bridgefirmly in the background? My husband and I were laughing our asses off–“Hey, look, we were totally drunk once riiiiiight… THERE!” And the very last shot? Right across the American River at the boat launch in Discovery Park. Heh heh.

Yeah, I’m sometimes a location geek, shoot me!

Yeah, but in fairness, most practitioners of most religions don’t actually follow everything in their holy books. So if the members of the LDS church aren’t following the literal text of the Book of Mormon (I wouldn’t know, I haven’t read it) then they have plenty of company.

E.g., Jews and Christians believe in a book that says that under certain circumstances it’s appropriate to stone rape victims to death (Deuteronomy 22:23-24). But that doesn’t mean Judaism or Christianity as actually practiced are pro-stoning.

They weren’t petting rats. They were petting weasels. Which, come to think of it, doesn’t really sound all that much better.

I’m utterly unsurprised by the whole Ben/Margie thing–as others have said, it had been hinted at pretty heavily before. But I’m confused about why they were both changing in the same hotel room. Whenever I’ve been on a trip with a big group like that, we straightaway put our luggage into whatever room we were going to sleep in. So when we changed into or out of bathing suits, we did it in our own rooms, because that’s where our clothes were. I can’t imagine them putting Ben staying in the room with Margie; I’d think he’d be in a room with some or all of the little boys. So the whole seeing-each-other-naked thing seems kind of contrived to drive the whole love note plot.

Also, it made me really sad to see how Sarah totally lit up when Bill offered to spend an evening with her and just her. She was so down, and nothing anybody else did or said seemed to perk her up at all, and after that she was smiling and laughing. It makes you wonder just how long it’s been since he’s made any effort at all to actually act like a dad to her, that an evening with him is that big a deal. I’m guessing it’s been a seriously long-ass time.

What I got from this episode is that Bill might finally realize that the church isn’t where he’s going to find his fulfillment – it’s his love for his family that will make him strong. He thought something special would happen at Cumorah, but it happened there at the side of the road, and the church had nothing to do with it.

For the record, I’m not aware that the town is called Cumorah. The pageant is. The town is Palmyra, NY.

Yeah, it didn’t make any sense that they were in the same room. I’m a little pissed that they didn’t play it longer and show us more of Ben; they could’ve aleast done a strategically-placed-object-blocking-his-crotch. :mad: Still I liked how he was clearly enjoying the whole thing; he didn’t try to cover anything up at all. :wink:

Best episode of the entire series, and by a good margin. I’m really becoming a fan of Nicki.

Ferrets, actually, which are common household pets (illegal in California, for some reason.)

I’d also like to hear more about the time capsule. If it’s a common Mormon thing, you’d thing there would be a more controlled designated spot to bury them – it looked like they were surreptitiously burying contraband.

I was struck by the weird music that accompanied the appearance of the angel Moroni. What was that about?

And the last shot of Bill & Barb embracing Sarah had me all ferklempt.

I really, really hate Bill now, after we saw him ordering Nicki to go off the pill. Wow, I’m sure she’s really going to want to have sex with you and carry your seed! Such incentive.

And I love how it’s such a huge deal that she covered up being on the pill, but it’s fine that he lied about being on Viagra? Ugh!

Well their religion places a lot of emphasis on raising as many children as possible so you have a happy heavenly family in eternity. Under that belief structure, lying about taking a pill that promotes more children does seem like less of a problem than lying about a pill that prevents more children.

Well, if their purpose is to have more children, then the Viagra helps with that, while the birth control pill does not.

Yeah, and how hypocritical was it of Bill to hug Sarah at the end? She’s an adulterer! Bill just picks and chooses when to buy into his religion whenever it suits his purpose. The nerve of that guy.