Do private schools have merit pay? If so, in what form?
I like the “idea” of markets, but they’re not automatically ideally efficient (as everyone presumes). A really thought-out system of merit pay will be better than what private schools have come up with so far. (Private schools, like private corporations, take a lot of time in choosing teachers from the start, but then slack off to continually measure performance and adjust reward.)
You’ll get no argument from me Alex_Dubinsky, those are all valid points. Private schools, as you stated, usually have more strict hiring criteria. They also have the funding available to offer competitive wages. We could debate which of those conditions follows the other but the net result is same. Private institutions typically net the better, more educated teachers, these teachers make more money than public school teachers.
Markets aren’t perfect, they can be volatile or too slow to change depending on your perspective. History shows us however that the judgment of the free market is demonstrably better than the judgment of individuals. I suppose we’re veering into hijack territory though.
I’m not against merit pay or any other reform so much as I am pro-wages. I don’t think raising teachers’ pay is a singular solution to our educational woes but I view it as an important first step.
My gut tells me we should institute sweeping changes, cull the wheat from the chaff, and reward those left standing with wage increases. I worry however, about realistic expectations. Some days I’d like to fire everyone in my department but I can’t very well let production grind to a halt.
That’s the crux of the problem, any reform that doesn’t attract a higher class of individuals to the teaching profession fails to address the root issue.
These teachers are being forced out of the picture much earlier these days due to changes in certification, and how districts are evaluated and funded.
In Ohio, there is an immense amount of pressure to meet standards set by the state. If this isn’t happening–the end result can be a state take over of the school. Administrators can lose their jobs in this situation, so they are much more likely to get rid of teachers who aren’t performing as needed.
This has also led to teachers being moved around more often. We had a decent fifth grade math teacher for about 3 years–but when she failed to meet her passing criteria on standardized tests, she was moved to another area–and a new teacher was brought in, and he got the job done immediately.
Permanent certificates are no longer issued, and many schools have changed the language of their contracts to give administration more flexibility in getting rid of teachers. Mentoring programs are now in place for all entry level teachers, and the process for getting an initial teaching certificate is more difficult as well.
Has this weeded out all horrible teachers? I’m sure we all agree that this will never happen.
I would be fine with merit pay as a teacher–as long as it was based on student improvement, and not achievement. This idea is already being used by many states to evaluate teacher effectiveness. This is called Value Added Data, and some companies, like Battelle for Kids, have programs in place that use this data to measure teacher effectiveness based on student improvement.
Maybe, but again … our teacher pay is already higher than much of Europe and Asia.
I agree; the problem is that many of those entrenched in the education industry are opposed to not just any specific tests, but with standardized testing in princiciple.
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There’s a big part of me that believes the wholesale privatization of education would yield more expedient, better results. I’m not quite ready to give up on public education though.
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Frankly, I think it’s best hope is to become leaner. More charter schools & more private schools = fewer public school jobs = opportunity to weed out the worst teachers and administrators.
Some do, most don’t. It’s not needed as much because private schools are not unionized, and thus they can fire people at will.
In most cases, private school teachers make less than public school counterparts. Your exclusive Sidwell-Freinds-type places can offer primo $, but your average St. Joe’s HS offers less that the local public high.
This isn’t true. With the exception of very elite private academy-type places, private school teachers make much, much less than public school teachers. Their salaries also advance more slowly, they have less job security, and are more subject to the whims of administration and parents.
By and large, people don’t teach in private schools for the money. Some teach in private school because they came through the private school system and can’t imagine any other way. Others teach in private school because they lack certification, or because of the lower student load, the increased academic freedom, the lack of administrative bullshit, and (more than anything else) the lack of severe discipline problems.
I never understood why people oppose merit pay. Every place I have ever worked payed you on the basis of annual performance reviews. People don’t all wotk on the same projects, or have the same job function, but nevertheless companies make thsi process work. What’s the alternative, paying based on seniority? What a horrible way to motivate teachers and not be able to drive out the bad ones.
It’s great if you are one of the bad ones. And almost all unions oppose merit pay in favor of seniority-based pay.
Plenty of issues come up with this in any incentive plan. If there is a way to game the system, it will happen.
Is there any way to de-unionize the teachers? I think of all places that would be the place to start.
You’re living in an alternative universe. Aside from a few very exclusive academies most private primary and secondary schools in the US pay quite poorly relative to public school teacher salaries and benefits, and if anything teacher certification and hiring criteria are generally more lax than in public schools simply because relatively fewer teachers are willing to (or can afford to) work for the peanuts they pay.
I can’t make heads or tails of this notion of yours. You seem to be arguing that merit pay will somehow incentivize people to work better, smarter, harder without the person being incentivized knowing the specific criteria and performance targets they are being evaluated and paid on. People working toward a goal to attain a bonus have specific performance targets they must meet. “Doing the right thing” is not a real world metric. Of course you want people to “optimize what is being measured”, that’s the entire point of incentivizing people with bonus pay.
Wow, I stand WAY corrected on public teacher pay. Theymakemore. I couldn’t find current comparative stats but I’m convinced public school teachers make more. Public school teachers have better health care as well. Private boarding schools house their teachers but that’s the only monetary advantage I could fine.
I was really surprised. I went to a public school and it was fairly common among the younger teachers to gripe and threaten to leave for private schools. They must not have been talking about money. shrug It makes the higher performance of private school students slightly more remarkable though I think BlinkingDuck is right about being able to drop/not accept the lunker students being the difference.
This thread is disheartening. If we enact a merit-system will we spend all the merit pay on observers/evaluators? As Blake was saying, we can’t just accept widespread teacher fraud as an excuse for inaction.
I still think teacher wages across the board need to be higher in order to lure more folks into the profession but that’s certainly not a cure-all. It’s getting harder and harder to defend public schools. Like merit pay, I support public schools in principle but it seems to have devolved into a failed system.
Teaching really, really needs merit pay. However, I do not know how to do it.
I am skeptical of any merit pay scheme for teachers out there. There are just too many problems with teaching as a ‘profession’ plus the nature of education itself that makes this difficult.
What is needed is for bright, college students to consider teaching as a career. This is laughable because teachers are considered low status in society…pay is usually horrid…pay usually barely or doesn’t even keep up with inflation as the years go by. There are no real advancement opportunities (and no large increases in pay) possible. You are responsible to people that are not ‘you’…are not teachers unlike doctors or lawyers. In fact, your career is considered a liability - many teachers cannot be elected to a school board because teachers shouldn’t be on there! (Imagine this same argument for health committess and doctors or law committees and lawyers). No, mister doctor, you shouldn’t have input into health care policy…you are a DOCTOR!
You will never get teaching taken seriously by the brightest and most energetic because these people want respect…and teaching does not have this…not at all.
THAT is what needs to be dealt with…and this will NOT happen in the USA for the near or medium term future. So, the lions share of future teachers will come from the lower quality college students. If you have these as your teachers, it will be harder to motivate them. You get what you pay for.
You think a simple algorithm will be better? That is a ridiculous notion. I mean, in the context of a complex algorithm it may be alright to let the participants analyze it and try to optimize towards it. But even then I’m not so sure. It may be better to have people try to push their own notion of “doing the right thing” and then complain that it’s not reflected in their reward, as that would point out flaws in the algorithm.
Here is the middle ground: you discuss and explain the philosophical underpinning and the goals of what you’re trying to achieve with the kids (as an example of philosophical dicotomy: specific book knowledge vs creative thought and exposition) and then tweak the algorithm secretly behind the scenes. The goals are clear, but the tricks to artifically optimizing scores are hidden. Only if the algorithm is perfect can it be revealed, but in that case it couldn’t be understood anyway.
Ahh… but here’s an interesting outcome. Merit pay brings not only money to the successful, but recognition and respect. It will bring a lot of emotional reward with it. High-merit teachers can even be recognized and promoted outside of the educational circles. One can imagine a future when they may trounce lawyers at parties if they interject, “well I’m a merit-5 teacher,” and several kinds of doctors.
Wha…? What in the world are you smoking? People whose efforts are predicated on a merit bonus for a substantial portion for their income will (and damn well should) demand to have some concrete metrics for success and payment of the bonus. This Wizard of Oz “tweak the algorithm secretly behind the scenes” scheme you have concocted is not how people incentivized by a bonus are paid in the real world.
How are public schools failing? Are they not providing a basic education for all students who walk in the door?
Funding for public schools is failing. Support for public schools is failing. And, in far too man cases, parents of public school children are failing.
Public school teachers are doing a job that few would want to do for the pay that is given, and they are trying to teach many who do not want to learn in the first place. They are doing all of this while most of the rest of society questions their ability and motive to do so.
I’m slightly biased since I’m a public school teacher–but I do believe that public schools are doing an amazing job with they task they have been given considering the incredible odds that are stacked against them.
You’re funny!
I will personally eat my and your hat if that ever happens and it is not met with jokes and laughter.
I used to teach. Believe me…teachers do not have respect in this society. They really are considered lower-class. YOU may have respect for them (though I would argue you may only think you do and not really) but that is not true for the majority.
If you think the majority respect teachers, let me tell you this. Nearly EVERYONE thinks they should be paid more than a teacher. Just ask.
Jesus Christ, this is a depressing thread. I’ve been a teacher for fifteen years, and I must have heard all this crap about merit pay and free market thinking being a cure-all for education’s problems about a thousand times. It’s invariably suggested by people who know nothing of the curricula imposed on schools, nothing of the circumstances under which teachers operate, nothing of what motivates or does not motivate teachers.
Can I make a few points? I don’t give a toss whether I’m ‘respected’ or not. I FEEL about as respected as most other people around where I live but it doesn’t actually matter that much. I couldn’t care less if I can ‘beat’ a lawyer in terms of status at a party, and I think only an utter knobhead would be motivated by such petty nonsense. What I WOULD like would be if I could have a class with fewer than 30 kids in it; some support to deal with the 5 kids with severe EBD issues; further support to help cope with the kids who don’t have English as a first language; someone to tell the people who actually run my school to unblock youtube and buy a few computers; some actual sanctions against kids who perpetually mess up lessons and, more importantly, against their parents. THEN I’ll start thinking about the possible benefits of merit based pay, but at the minute it is such a trivial part of what needs to happen that I see no point in even considering it.