Birth control, breast pumps, counseling for abuse? Are we going to do pedicures & manicures as well?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Yllaria

For the birth control, it’s like that old Fram oil filter commercial: you can pay me now or you can pay me later. In other words, an oil filter is cheaper than an engine rebuild. With birth control, what it’s cheaper than varies, but it’s always cheaper.

Not really. If you don’t factor in the benefit of a healthier population and only count the cost saving associated with early detection versus the cost of getting that early detection, universal preventative care doesn’t save health care dollars per se and frankly it increases the population of old people who will be sucking up health care dolars. Its cheaper to just let them die undiagnosed.

For the working age populatuion you have to count stuff like lost productivity to make the case for preventative care. For the retirees, the economy is better off implmenting Logan’s Run type carousel or turning them into soylent green. Much cheaper that way.

I was going to equivocate about the other two that had been mentioned, but then cancer screenings were mentioned, and they’re also money savers. Sometimes you have to put up with helping make people’s lives better in order to save money. Also, since it’s not the insurance companies that are $14T in debt, I’m not too worked up about them losing a few annual copays.

We actually save more money by letting cancer go undiagnosed until its too late to do anything, don’t we?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@curlcoat

As much as I disagree with the government handing out freebies, I’d think that abuse counseling must save money by allowing the abused women to become functioning members of society?

It might save “society” money by increasing that woman’s productivity but it doesn’t reduce over all health care costs.

Also, can anyone tell me why it is necessary to give out breast pumps? I’ve never had kids and my mother didn’t use one, so I have no idea why one might be needed, much less how it reduces costs?

Breast milk is cheaper than formula and allows a woman to hold down a job while her child is fed by someone else. So you get the increase in productivity again.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Cheesesteak

It’s like this, you save $100/yr by not ever getting an oil change. Then, when the engine goes tits up after 5 years, you pay $50 for a tow to the junkyard (morgue), and have “saved” $450 for our “Car Care System”.

But think of all that gas money you’ll save.

We don’t really have to worry about the car being towed to the morgue much earlier than necessary, because it’s just some loser who doesn’t have enough money to pay for his own health care.

At some point the utility of the car does not justify the ongoing cost of repairs. At that point we stop taking it to the garage to see why it broke down, we just call goodwill and have them pick it up.

[Indygrrl]

TLDR Warning

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Saying that “babies don’t have to breastfed” is a vapid and sophist statement. You can live on bread and water. That doesn’t mean it’s wise. Why should babies have to compromise their health, immunity and emotional happiness if they don’t have to?

I’ll preface this by saying I am 100% pro-breastfeeding, anytime, anywhere, any age of baby/toddler. And I would like to see all new mamas at least give breastfeeding a try, whether they ultimately decide to keep up with it or stop right there.

But statements like this are so counterproductive that they actually turn women away from breastfeeding before they even begin. The last thing anyone, much less a woman who just gave birth, needs is a guilt trip or a santimonius lecture about “compromising” her baby’s health and happiness (esp from a man who has no earthly idea what goes on in a woman’s mind and body in those first few days). You have kids, so I know you’re aware that damn near everything is a controversy in new mama-land. Whatever a woman chooses to do, from the second she finds out she’s pregnant, is going to be questioned by someone (sadly, it’s other moms most of the time). Everything from each morsel of food she eats, to what doctor or midwife she chooses, what birth interventions she may or may not choose, circumcision, vaccinations, breastfeeding, babywearing, co-sleeping, attachment parenting…you get the gist.

The lactivists (breastfeeding activists) I know are always working towards getting the message out without alienating anyone, which is pretty difficult. They fight against the “breastfeeding nazi” stereotype that seems to pop up in every discussion about babies. I’ve actually heard tongue-in-cheek comments to the tune of, “Gah, I’m so sick of hearing about breastfeeding it makes me want to bottle feed just to spite them!” That’s been uttered in jest, but it’s plain to see that those thoughts got into her head from somewhere, someone.

Even in the most ideal conditions, getting that breastfeeding relationship rolling smoothly is a very tough thing. If a mama has a good doula, a lactation consultant, and support from her husband and peers, she has a much better chance of sticking with breastfeeding. Unfortunately, a lot of women don’t have access to good breastfeeding help. Sites like Facebook have been a godsend to new mamas because it gives them the peer support they badly need in those first few weeks/months.

The first few weeks of breastfeeding can be hell (but it gets better, so please don’t be scared by that if anyone reading is pregnant). There’s worry about the milk coming in, if she’ll have enough supply, possible tongue-tie and latch issues, and raw, cracked nipples that make it feel like the baby is biting your tit off. Then when mama does get used to it and gets into a rhythm with her baby, by the time he/she is six months old people begin asking questions about how much longer she’s going to nurse the baby. And that only gets worse as the child passes the year mark. And don’t even get me started on the flak so many women get when they have the audacity to gasp FEED their baby in public!

All of these reasons and more are why it’s not cool to try to make a woman feel guilty or shamed because she didn’t breastfeed, for whatever reason. Women who formula feed love their babies just as much as mamas who breastfeed. And that’s a choice that is between a woman and her baby, and to a lesser extent her husband and other children. You can’t know what goes on behind closed doors, or why someone has chosen to bottle feed. And for all anyone knows, the mama may very well be giving her baby a bottle of breastmilk that she pumped.

Another reason to give bottle feeding mamas a break is because a lot of women who bottle feed their first baby end up breastfeeding the ones that come after. Like with so many things, we learn as we go, and the first baby is kinda the trial run where you test all of the stuff you thought you knew. And somehow, through it all, our babies survive and so do we.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@curlcoat

Huh. I wonder how mothers of early generations dealt with that.

You know women used to die during childbirth too. The dad would have to hire a wetnurse or beg teat from friends and family. Sometimes the child just starved to death.

You can also express milk by squeezing them sometimes.

Most women can breastfeed their babies with varying degrees of success. The baby that doesn’t feed very well may get hungry enough that they eventually learn to form a latch.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@cards

OK, off topic from breast feeding…

I wonder how dear Sandy feels about the fact that most health care plans support Viagra?

really?

[DiosaBellissima]

Hey, Damuri Ajashi. You’re aware that you don’t have to reply to each post individually, yes? You can do it all in one or two big posts. Protip. etc etc

[kushiel]

@Damuri_Ajashi

It might save “society” money by increasing that woman’s productivity but it doesn’t reduce over all health care costs.

Breast milk is cheaper than formula and allows a woman to hold down a job while her child is fed by someone else. So you get the increase in productivity again.

In addition, some women don’t express enough breast milk to fill up the baby at one time. My SIL uses a pump so that she can accumulate breast milk over time to make enough for a full bottle. You take what you can get, you know?

[Mighty_Girl]

@Indygrrl

Another reason to give bottle feeding mamas a break is because a lot of women who bottle feed their first baby end up breastfeeding the ones that come after. Like with so many things, we learn as we go, and the first baby is kinda the trial run where you test all of the stuff you thought you knew. And somehow, through it all, our babies survive and so do we.

Some women cannot breastfeed due to health reasons (medications, contagious diseases, etc.). So there is that.

I had enough with people trying to change my mind about breasfeeding for two years (until my daughter gave up), I don’t feel like I should do the same to another mother for making a different choice, specially if I don’t know the circumstances behind it. Now, if people asked me why I breastfed, politely and with an open-mind, I told them why I thought it was the best thing ever, other than that it’s nobody’s damn business.

[CrazyCatLady]

@curlcoat

Maybe they will answer you - apparently they are more interested in making a big deal out of my one question about pumps than my question about why Family PAC was on about the debt.

Judging by your questions, I’m going to guess you don’t know a whole lot about the physiology of breastfeeding, and the information people have given is in little disconnected dribs and drabs, so maybe this will make the issues involved clearer for you.

To a certain extent, the breast is like a kidney and bladder. The kidneys never stop making urine and pumping it down to the bladder, but the bladder can only hold so much. If you don’t drain it regularly, it gets uncomfortably full, then really painfully full, and will eventually leak. Likewise, when a lactating woman doesn’t drain her breasts regularly, they get full and sore and eventually leak. If this happens often enough and for long enough, milk production goes down. That’s how the milk dries up if you don’t breastfeed or when you wean.

The workday tends to cover 2-3 feedings, depending on schedule, commute time, and age of the baby. Without some sort of draining going on, Mom’s going to suffer the consequences listed above. And the baby has to eat something at those feedings. You don’t have to pump and give that to the baby in bottles the next day, but it’s certainly cheaper and more efficient than buying formula and keeping a steady supply of clean shirts at work.

@Indygrrl

The lactivists (breastfeeding activists) I know are always working towards getting the message out without alienating anyone, which is pretty difficult. They fight against the “breastfeeding nazi” stereotype that seems to pop up in every discussion about babies. I’ve actually heard tongue-in-cheek comments to the tune of, “Gah, I’m so sick of hearing about breastfeeding it makes me want to bottle feed just to spite them!” That’s been uttered in jest, but it’s plain to see that those thoughts got into her head from somewhere, someone.

Well, yeah. Breastfeeding is a message that’s pretty well already out there–trying to spread the word about it is kind of like trying to spread the word about Jesus. I hear all I care to hear on the subject on the tv ads and billboards, even before threads about it on here; if I were actually having kids and had people actively trying to talk to me about it, I’d be even more sick of hearing about boobies than I am of hearing about Jesus from street preachers at festivals. And that’s honestly what lactivists remind me of. They both act like they have this remarkable message that none of us have ever heard before, when in fact we’ve all heard it before. Frequently. And at great length.

[cards]

@Damuri_Ajashi

really?

Really

[Spice_Weasel]

I skimmed this thread, but anyway, Shodan, in case you didn’t get your cite that contraceptive care saves money in the long run, here it is.

Then there’s this: The impact of publicly funded and family planning services on unintended pregnancies and public cost savings. (PDF, 4th link from top.)

In 2004, an estimated $1.4 billion was used to support provision of
contraceptive care at publicly funded family planning clinics (Table 3, column 7).
Factoring in only the public-sector costs for maternity care, delivery, and one year of
infant-related care for those contraceptive clients who would be eligible for Medicaid
maternity care in their state if they became pregnant, we estimate that a total of $5.7 billion
in Medicaid expenditures would have been needed. Subtracting the family planning
program costs from the estimated Medicaid maternity costs yields a total net publicsector
savings of $4.3 billion. Alternatively, comparing the family planning program
costs to the total Medicaid costs averted yields an estimate of per-dollar public-sector
savings: Nationally, for every $1 spent on the family planning program, $4.02 is saved
in averted Medicaid birth costs.

(bolding mine)

The Guttmacher institute also released a 2009 study finding that for every $1 spent on Title X Family Planning Services, $3 would be saved. (it’s on the website if you want to hunt around for it.)

While some studies have indeed shown that preventative care may not save money in the long run, family planning doesn’t appear to be one of those cases.

[Cat_Fight]

@Shodan

What evidence do you have that counseling reduces instances of domestic abuse? It’s nice to imagine that things might happen, somewhere, sometime, if we just spend enough money. But reality is generally more useful.

Regards,
Shodan

You know, I really don’t know, except for my first-hand experiences. Interestingly, I’m having an easier time finding info on the effects of counseling batterers rather than victims (in which case, it does seem somewhat effective). Perhaps it’s a kneejerk reaction, the belief that therapy is essential for real results when there are clear psychological issues at play – and because DV victims are not always forthcoming – rather than paying for simple medical interventions, effective laws, domestic shelters (though I’ve never worked with one that didn’t have someone with psych training – or at least who filled that role – on staff) and work programs. I can’t even conceive of anyone that would attempt to treat the body and not the mind, but you’re right that there’s a real lack of information.

No study has examined, in a comparative design, the effectiveness of screening when the end point is improved outcomes for women (as opposed to identification of abuse). No high-quality evidence exists to evaluate the effectiveness of shelter stays to reduce violence. Among women who have spent at least 1 night in a shelter, there is fair evidence that those who received a specific program of advocacy and counseling services reported a decreased rate of reabuse and an improved quality of life. The benefits of several other intervention strategies in treating both women and men are unclear, primarily because of a lack of suitably designed research measuring appropriate outcomes. In most cases, the potential harms of interventions are not assessed within the studies reviewed.

[Cat_Fight]

Too late to edit: The plan also covers counseling on contraceptive use, STIs, HIV and breastfeeding. Not sure if a cite is needed that contraceptive is more effective with proper use (not just putting a condom on a banana, but getting accurate information, finding the right method for your BMI and lifestyle, having the ability to switch if one kind makes you sick, etc.).

[curlcoat]

@purplehorseshoe

… and that’s why, to answer your question, women need breast pumps. If she has the audacity to go out in public with her child (let’s say, oh, I dunno, they need food from the friggin’ grocery store and the baby needs to be fed, she can bottle-feed it the pumped milk instead of offending your delicate sensibilities by breast-feeding.

Make sense?

It seems like another thing the modern mother is these days is rude. And unable to plan? Unless it takes you hours to go to the grocery store and back, there doesn’t seem to be any need to bring baby or pump. But then, once you start doing that “hardest job on earth”, you cannot be bothered to think of anyone else, can you?

@Damuri_Ajashi

It might save “society” money by increasing that woman’s productivity but it doesn’t reduce over all health care costs.

Oh. That was in reference to just health care costs? Oops.

Breast milk is cheaper than formula and allows a woman to hold down a job while her child is fed by someone else. So you get the increase in productivity again.

This one isn’t just in reference to health care costs?

Apparently, and not surprisingly, the whole BF thing has just roared on by me. It is now so common that insurance companies are expected to provide pumps for - free? without copay? - and women going right back to work are so common that pumps are a necessity?

@Damuri_Ajashi

You know women used to die during childbirth too. The dad would have to hire a wetnurse or beg teat from friends and family. Sometimes the child just starved to death.

I wasn’t going that far back into the past. More like the 50’s & 60’s.

Most women can breastfeed their babies with varying degrees of success. The baby that doesn’t feed very well may get hungry enough that they eventually learn to form a latch.

“Can” isn’t what I was questioning, it was more “need to”. And I guess how common it is these days.

[DianaG]

@curlcoat

It seems like another thing the modern mother is these days is rude.

Nursing isn’t rude. If you look up “rude” you’ll note that the definition is not “discomfiting to curlcoat and her antique and otherwise peculiar sensibilities”.

[LavenderBlue]

@Indygrrl

TLDR Warning

I’ll preface this by saying I am 100% pro-breastfeeding, anytime, anywhere, any age of baby/toddler. And I would like to see all new mamas at least give breastfeeding a try, whether they ultimately decide to keep up with it or stop right there.

But statements like this are so counterproductive that they actually turn women away from breastfeeding before they even begin. The last thing anyone, much less a woman who just gave birth, needs is a guilt trip or a santimonius lecture about “compromising” her baby’s health and happiness (esp from a man who has no earthly idea what goes on in a woman’s mind and body in those first few days). You have kids, so I know you’re aware that damn near everything is a controversy in new mama-land. Whatever a woman chooses to do, from the second she finds out she’s pregnant, is going to be questioned by someone (sadly, it’s other moms most of the time). Everything from each morsel of food she eats, to what doctor or midwife she chooses, what birth interventions she may or may not choose, circumcision, vaccinations, breastfeeding, babywearing, co-sleeping, attachment parenting…you get the gist.

The lactivists (breastfeeding activists) I know are always working towards getting the message out without alienating anyone, which is pretty difficult. They fight against the “breastfeeding nazi” stereotype that seems to pop up in every discussion about babies. I’ve actually heard tongue-in-cheek comments to the tune of, “Gah, I’m so sick of hearing about breastfeeding it makes me want to bottle feed just to spite them!” That’s been uttered in jest, but it’s plain to see that those thoughts got into her head from somewhere, someone.

Even in the most ideal conditions, getting that breastfeeding relationship rolling smoothly is a very tough thing. If a mama has a good doula, a lactation consultant, and support from her husband and peers, she has a much better chance of sticking with breastfeeding. Unfortunately, a lot of women don’t have access to good breastfeeding help. Sites like Facebook have been a godsend to new mamas because it gives them the peer support they badly need in those first few weeks/months.

The first few weeks of breastfeeding can be hell (but it gets better, so please don’t be scared by that if anyone reading is pregnant). There’s worry about the milk coming in, if she’ll have enough supply, possible tongue-tie and latch issues, and raw, cracked nipples that make it feel like the baby is biting your tit off. Then when mama does get used to it and gets into a rhythm with her baby, by the time he/she is six months old people begin asking questions about how much longer she’s going to nurse the baby. And that only gets worse as the child passes the year mark. And don’t even get me started on the flak so many women get when they have the audacity to gasp FEED their baby in public!

All of these reasons and more are why it’s not cool to try to make a woman feel guilty or shamed because she didn’t breastfeed, for whatever reason. Women who formula feed love their babies just as much as mamas who breastfeed. And that’s a choice that is between a woman and her baby, and to a lesser extent her husband and other children. You can’t know what goes on behind closed doors, or why someone has chosen to bottle feed. And for all anyone knows, the mama may very well be giving her baby a bottle of breastmilk that she pumped.

Another reason to give bottle feeding mamas a break is because a lot of women who bottle feed their first baby end up breastfeeding the ones that come after. Like with so many things, we learn as we go, and the first baby is kinda the trial run where you test all of the stuff you thought you knew. And somehow, through it all, our babies survive and so do we.

Beautiful post. Thank you. The only thing I would add is that you can also breast feed your first and find yourself unable to do so with your second. All babies are different. My first daughter latched. My second simply hasn’t so I am pumping for her and giving her some formula. Like most mothers I’m just doing the best I can with what I have.

@curlcoat

It seems like another thing the modern mother is these days is rude. And unable to plan? Unless it takes you hours to go to the grocery store and back, there doesn’t seem to be any need to bring baby or pump. But then, once you start doing that “hardest job on earth”, you cannot be bothered to think of anyone else, can you?

Oh. That was in reference to just health care costs? Oops.

This one isn’t just in reference to health care costs?

Apparently, and not surprisingly, the whole BF thing has just roared on by me. It is now so common that insurance companies are expected to provide pumps for - free? without copay? - and women going right back to work are so common that pumps are a necessity?

I wasn’t going that far back into the past. More like the 50’s & 60’s.

“Can” isn’t what I was questioning, it was more “need to”. And I guess how common it is these days.

Please just shut the fuck up. You don’t know anything about this subject so just stop talking about it. You know nothing about babies or breast feeding or pumping milk or the history of childbirth. So just do us all a favor and STFU.

[DianaG]

Missed the edit window.

curlcoat, nursing is the norm nowadays, and whether or not people “need to” isn’t really your call.

The 50s may not have been that long ago in absolute terms, but you may have noticed a cultural shift or two since then. (Or maybe not, your bubble seems pretty airtight.)

[curlcoat]

@DianaG

Nursing isn’t rude. If you look up “rude” you’ll note that the definition is not “discomfiting to curlcoat and her antique and otherwise peculiar sensibilities”.

I wasn’t talking about nursing when I mentioned rude, but since you immediately jumped to that conclusion, I kind of wonder how sure you are that doing it openly in public isn’t rude.

What is rude, however, is acting like a complete bitch when someone dares to say something about one of your pet subjects. What is also rude is doing something you absolutely don’t need to do, when you know full well that you are upsetting at least some of the people around you. But then, it appears my first comment holds - when you become a mommy, you cannot be bothered to think of anyone else.

@LavenderBlue

Please just shut the fuck up. You don’t know anything about this subject so just stop talking about it. You know nothing about babies or breast feeding or pumping milk or the history of childbirth. So just do us all a favor and STFU.

So, it’s OK for Indygrrl to tell you that a baby doesn’t need to be breastfed, but not me? OK, thanks for cementing my impression that you don’t use logic.

@DianaG

Missed the edit window.

curlcoat, nursing is the norm nowadays, and whether or not people “need to” isn’t really your call.

Well, if it is costing me money, it is. Hence the questions. Apparently it isn’t as cut and dried as you would like to think, given the highly sensitive reaction to any questions on the subject.

The 50s may not have been that long ago in absolute terms, but you may have noticed a cultural shift or two since then. (Or maybe not, your bubble seems pretty airtight.)

Well, since cultural shifts had nothing to do with it, this seems immaterial.

[Indygrrl]

@CrazyCatLady

Well, yeah. Breastfeeding is a message that’s pretty well already out there–trying to spread the word about it is kind of like trying to spread the word about Jesus. I hear all I care to hear on the subject on the tv ads and billboards, even before threads about it on here; if I were actually having kids and had people actively trying to talk to me about it, I’d be even more sick of hearing about boobies than I am of hearing about Jesus from street preachers at festivals. And that’s honestly what lactivists remind me of. They both act like they have this remarkable message that none of us have ever heard before, when in fact we’ve all heard it before. Frequently. And at great length.

Yeah, I agree that the information is out there and people already know about breastfeeding. The lactivist types I know are more about normalizing breastfeeding than preaching “breast is best” and all that shit. Unfortunately, just like every other parenting issue, the loudest, most obnoxious zealots seem to get all the attention and give the rest a bad rap.