Birthright (a hijack averted)

The BBQ Pit
21

Do I have personal experience with PP?..no

Do I know folks who have had bad experiences with PP?..yes

Does that even matter for my point?..no

Wow…you’re asking me for a cite to support a claim of a bad experience? (apparently no such cite needed for PP) Wow…it’s like the irony meter in my head is spiking off the charts. :rolleyes:

Are you really claiming that in all of the hundreds of PP clinics spread around the country…there is NOT ONE “negative experience” associated with any of them?

Wow. Just wow.

Geez if only all other medical facilities could have such a perfect record. :dubious:

More wow. I did NOT “slam” PP in my post. I offered up what’s called hypothetical example of what might happen if I (or anyone) had done such a thing…there would have been demands for cites (which…umm…golly you just proved my point there…thanks) even though NO SUCH supporting evidence or example is expected for claims against Birthright.

Oh really? Pro choice kung fu lola went to Birthright for services. Really? It’s possible…and I wasn’t claiming otherwise in my question…but it sure wasn’t implied or explicitly stated in the OP. Perhaps you could show me in the OP where it is stated or implied that she had first hand experiences with Birthright?

Wow. I didn’t see that in the OP…is that posted in that secret transparent font that doesnt appear on my monitor?

I saw…

(my emphasis)…NOT really a question but a “I dont have proof that this is policy everywhere…but it could very well be a secret policy”
So to recap…

kung fu lola makes some sort of claim about the local chapter of Birthright.

No other supporting evidence is offered about the nature of what happens there…(and none of the pro choice folks who chime in seem particularly bothered by that…or motivated to easily check out what the policies of the International Birthright really are)…

I posit a hypothetical example of someone starting a pit thread about poor treatment at PP clinic…and what would probably happen in such a thread.

You promptly prove my point…suggesting that there have been NO negative experiences at PP clinics that you know…and requesting a cite from me for suggesting that there might be. The irony is so rich as to be humorous.

22

Yes, Planned Parenthood (from my experience and their website) provides counseling and adoption information.

Please see these links from their website:

“What if I’m Pregnant?”

“The Whole Truth About Adoption”

http://www.teenwire.com/index.asp?taStrona=http://www.teenwire.com/warehous/articles/wh_20000816p082.asp
“Adoption: An Act of Love”
http://www.teenwire.com/index.asp?taStrona=http://www.teenwire.com/infocus/articles/if_20000821p043.asp

I followed beagledave’s link to Birthright International, and can’t help but wonder why people wouldn’t find it misleading. They say:

“We want you to know the many options available to you.”

but don’t mention abortion as an option on their website.

23

I apologize if my post offended you. I was only seeking information and to provide some for you and the other folks who might be reading.

(I do understand that this has been posted in the Pit and that this is a volatile topic, but I had hoped that my post was polite enough to garner information without so much sarcasm and the ever-present :rollseyes: smiley.)

I only asked if you had personal experience OR if you had a cite detailing negative experiences. I’d be interested in reading about them, if available. If there is a cite available regarding PP negative practices, I’d like to know about them so that I could use that information to help others.

At no place in my post did I write that PP had a “perfect” record. In fact, I’d like to know about some of its mistakes, so that I have all the information available to me to make decisions or before I recommend them.

I apologized in advance if I had incorrectly read your comments as a “slam.” I thank you for taking that into consideration before jumping to conclusions (I suppose if one is inclinced, he might insert a :rollseyes: smiley here). You did not indicate that your example (in your previous post) was a “hypothetical” one, so you can understand my confusion. I disagree with your contention that there would not have been people asking for cites regardless of the organization or the stance of the OP. As you know, this is a heated topic with people on both sides. Besides, this is the SDMB where “cite” is a rallying call (or, if you are lucky, a subtle bit of flirting).

I never stated that kung fu lola had ahd first-hand experiences with Birthright International. I just said that’s how it “read to me.” Get it? “Read to me…” Like, hey, I could be wrong, correct me, geez…Just don’t be a jerk, mmmkay? I tried to be polite since I wanted information and I know how quickly these things can turn ugly.

Again, let me state that I offered limited, anecdoctal evidence about my experiences and just asked for yours. Why not offer it and continue with what I thought was an interesting discussion? Or correct me (as I had requested), if I was wrong or misread you?

Be well.

24

Not really. You first asked if I had first hand experience (again, you asked me for this even though it was a hypothetical situation I proposed earlier)…then you said…

(my emphasis)

So again…you thought I had some information about PP…and thought I should provide a CITE for said info.

I’ll say this AGAIN…the irony here, is that no one INCLUDING YOU…expected a cite from kung fu lola regarding Birthright.

I’ll be honest and say I don’t see a meaningful distinction between that and you saying …

Wow. Just wow.

If someone came in her and slammed PPs professionalism…

Ummm what does the word “IF” mean to you? :smack:

Really? YOU asked for a cite regarding claims of “negative experiences” at Planned Parenthood…which of the other pro choice folks in here made a similar request for the initial claim about Birthright? Polycarp suggested thatother folks might know more about Birthright in general…but I saw no pro choice poster being too bothered by a lack of evidence of system wide callous behavior by Birthright.

So even a hypothetical suggestion about PP gets a cite request by you…but I have yet to see you (or the other pro choice folks) make a similar request regarding the OP…I think you proved my point quite well, actually. :wink:

Umm why do I need to offer anecdotal evidence to support a point I never made? :confused:

I said IF I had made an anecdotal claim about PP in this or a different thread…folks would have wanted more info before acting as if the claims applied to PP as a whole…the would have wanted cites. I think, again, you proved my point.

I certainly don’t feel a need to offer any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that some folks who visit PP may have had “negative experiences”…since that ain’t my point!

25

Yeah, um, I’m thinking no.

I think you may have the mirror of the image a lot of pro-choicers have of pro-lifers – that everyone on the pro-life side is a raving, clinic-bombing loony who thinks all abortion docs should be burned at the stake and would rather have a thousand unwed teen mothers die from back-alley clotheshanger abortions than allow abortion to continue as a legal practice.

I think you may see people who run “abortion clinics” as a lot of bloodthirsty butchers with a big knife in one hand and a big scary grin on their faces. The sort of person who makes a cup of coffee in the morning and says “Yep! I’m gonna kill me some babies today!”

I’ve worked (albeit briefly) with similar clinics in my area. They’re required by law to give every bit of information they can – I’ve never yet heard of a PP-type place that did not give every reason not to have an abortion to a girl looking for one. I’ve never heard of an abortion clinic that rushed a woman through the process just so they could terminate that fetus, yo.

26

beagledave, are you saying that this thread is unjustified if lola has not had first hand experience?

27

It began with a letter to my local newspaper, The Examiner, in which a young mother detailed the experience I talked about in my OP. She was outraged and was writing to let everyone know that when she went to Birthright for help with supplies for her new baby, she was told that since she had not come to them during her pregnancy, she was not eligible for their help.

I showed the letter to my mother, whose job is working as a Health Educator at the local Women’s Health Care Centre (WHCC). She wrote a response to the letter, detailing free services and other help available through the County Health Unit, the YWCA and the WHCC, so that girls who had been turned away from Birthright could still find help.

Later on in High School, my friend Robin got pregnant. She was a Pentecostal Christian at the time, so she went to Birthright. She was never considering an abortion. After, we had a very civilised conversation about what it was like in there. She said it was “pretty normal”, they just left out mentioning abortion at all.

The rest of what I know about Birthright comes from what the WHCC hears about it from their clients.

The Housing Resource Centre used to have Birthright pamphlets in their lobby along with the other community groups’ pamphlets, but after a few complaints they went to check it out, and subsequently removed the pamphlets from their display. The consensus was that Birthright was a “political group”.

28

Huh, did I say that?

I was asking (as the context of my entire post suggested) for more information about the accusations against the local Birthright.

I’ll say this again (and Zhen’ka proved my point quite nicely…thanks). If a poster started a thread like the below HYPOTHETICAL example…there would have been multiple requests for cites and admonitions that one example does not constitute organizational problems.

Hypothetical example:

In my town, the Planned Parenthood group only gives lip service to abortion alternatives. They may “say” that they’re all about choice…but in reality they exert tremendous pressure through their “counselling” to choose abortion.

(YMMV, I really can’t say if this is a peccadillo of my city’s Planned Parenthood alone, or the mandate of the entire group. Even if it was, I doubt they would admit it outright.)

To support a group like Planed Parenthood is pro-abortion, not pro-choice
End of hypothetical example

How many nanoseconds would pass before some pro choice folks rushed in here

a) questioning the veracity of the claim, pointing out that its not part of Planned Parenthoods philosophy to act that way. Certainly somebody would ask for “cites” (hell, somebody already did even for a damn hypothetical earlier in this thread)

b) Point out that even if there WAS a bad experience at one clinic…making judgement about the entire PP organization (like kung fu lola did by saying “To support a group like Birthright is anti-feminist.”) would be dumb.

We now find that kung fu lola’s initial info comes from a LETTER in a newspaper…no other info about the woman’s experience…no side of the story from Birthright.

Her friend Robin goes there and describes it as “pretty normal”

The rest comes from what she hears second (or third) hand from clients at a pro choice womens center.
yeah…sounds like rock solid evidence to condemn an entire organization…I’m sure pro choice folks would do the same thing with negative anecdotal reports about PP… :rolleyes:

29

Well, from what I can gather (and not just from my experiences), Birthright uses a facade to push an anti-abortion agenda (as detailed in catsix’s post). That is a pretty shitty thing to do.

I know that on this cite-oriented MB, anecdotal experience is not seen as very credible, but AFAIAC, we all live on the same planet. If I am going to walk around being skeptical of everything I hear people relate to me because “it’s just anecdotal, it doesn’t really mean anything”, then I am going to go crazy and start thinking I’m a brain in a vat.

The letter writer had no reason to lie. She had a bad experience and she didn’t want the same thing to happen to anyone else. The Birthright centre in my town has alienated the WHCC, the Housing Resource Centre and the Women’s Group at the University (and probably others). They did that all on their own.

My puny little opinion isn’t going to single-handedly shut Birthright down. There are plenty of little old ladies etcetera who are orgasmic over writing checks for Birthright and other Anti-choice groups.

30

Oh I see… Except that…well, you said “To support a group like Birthright is anti-feminist.” before catsix made her post…so sorry, no. You formed a conclusion about a group based on some anecdotal evidence in ONE city. Again…if I had done the same thing with regards to PP…well look how Zhen’ka responded to my hypothetical…

Care for some straw? I never claimed anecdotal evidence is not credible at all…I certainly DID say that it’s dumb to extrapolate from anecdotal evidence about ONE clinic (evidence that…again is present without the benefit Birthright’s side of the story) to slam the ENTIRE organization…which is what you did.

Again (for the bazillionith time)…if I had done that with reggards to PP…there wold have been plenty of clamoring for cites…just like Zhen’ka did. You were the one who started a new pit thread about Birthright…I was thinking you might provide the same kind of credibility to the claim that pro choice folks would want for slams against PP…

Guess not.

You believe every letter to the editor you read in a newspaper? :dubious:

If we assume that the experience IS true (unfortunately)…again (for the bazillionith time) to extrapolate that to an entire organization is dumb.

Brilliant! Just brilliant!

Because we know that …

  1. folks would never get orgasmic over checks for Planned Parenthood… :rolleyes: and other “pro abortion” groups

  2. that you have summed up “anti choice” supporters so accurately

31

Planned Parenthood is not pro-abortion. It is pro-choice. That’s like saying that the Liquor License Board Of Ontario is “pro-drinking”. Which is ridiculous, since I don’t see the LCBO going to an AA party and spiking the punch.

Birthright is part of a movement that is trying to get choice taken away from women. Period.

And what I meant by referring to catsix was that I have the same impression of Birthright that she does. Just because I don’t spell it all out in my OP does mean I’ve never thought about it. As far as the WHCC in my hometown (and I) are concerned, Birthright suckers in confused girls under the pretense of offering confidential pregnancy tests (aren’t they all?) and other freebies. Then, they neglect to inform said girl of all of her options. To do anything less than fully inform a pregnant female of her options when confronted with a crisis pregnancy is wrong and anti-feminist. They are neglecting to empower the women who come to them for help.

I repeat: pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. :wally

32

Right, my impression of ‘Birthright’ is that they say in all their ads that they will ‘help’ pregnant women and girls by ‘counseling them about their options’.

They state this misleadingly, because they never intend to discuss all of the options, and a scared teenage girl who sees their ad in the phone book or on a billboard may actually take them at their word, that they will discuss all the available options.

I don’t know if anyone here can answer this, but if a pregnant woman or girl went to Birthright, and after being ‘counseled’ definitely wanted an abortion, would Birthright apply pressure to change their mind, or tell them ‘We don’t do that here, so you will have to go somewhere else.’ or even provide the names of other services?

33

The Birthright in my old hometown will not refer clients to places that provide abortions, or even to places that will refer clients to abortion providers. It’s that policy that gets the Women’s Group at the Uni, the YWCA and the WHCC’s panties in a twist. If they want to screen The Silent Scream to a captive audience, yay. If they want to give confidential pregnancy testing to women who are “late”, also yay. For a so-called community group to withold information from (thereby oppressing) women, not so yay.

34

Of course the term “pro abortion” is misleading, that’s why I put it in quotes. It’s as misleading as the term “anti choice”…as if pro life folks are just opposed to the whole philosophical concept of choice regarding any topic…(I mean I imagine even “pro choice” folks wouldn’t allow “choice” for some types of behavior like pedophilia…guess they must be “anti choice”? :dubious: )

Thoughtful pro choice folks (and there are plenty of them) use terms like “pro life” or “anti abortion” to describe folks with other viewpoints…

Folks who instead hope to gain political mileage at the expense of accuracy use terms like “pro abortion” or “anti choice”.

It’s sad really. This is all started by a pro choice poster (Polycarp) recognizing good deeds done by folks who he may not philosophically agree with. The extreme wing of the pro choice viewpoint comes in and says that unless a group includes abortion or abortion referrals as part of its services…then it has to be considered “anti-feminist”.

Birthright doesn’t claim to be a Planned Parenthood clone…they’re honest about what services they offer. Take a look at the link to the mission statement I offered earlier. Apparently abortion referrals must be part of that package in order for them to be considered legitimate. Apparently anecdotal evidence about ONE group in Canada (evidence that convienently doesn’t include the local Birthright’s side of the story) is enough to extrapolate judgement against them.

It’s sad really that this kind of thinking from the extreme wing of the pro choice camp and the “a woman should pay for her mistakes” (or one pro life poster in GD who insisted that all women must “like” abortions…otherwise why would they have them?) thinking from the extreme wing of the pro life camp have such prominence.

35

No. I didn’t prove your point. As you may recall, I described in my first post how I read kung fu lola’s post. In my reading of it, I saw a question. You have made it clear that you disagree (rather unpleasantly, I might add, the Pit be damned).

Also, I already apologized if I misread or misunderstood your post. Just clarify it for me (or the other posters who may/may not be confused) and move on to further the discussion of this OP. If you want to open another thread in GD or the Pit to discuss your “hypothetical example,” then do it.

Since I read her post as a request for more information, I did not ask for a cite since I had read a request for a cite/information in her post. Since I believed she was asking for information (possibly in the form of a cite), I didn’t ask for one myself.

I can’t speak for any other posters, but I didn’t ask for a cite for that reason. I had hoped to continue the discussion about the services this organization provides. Instead, I am responding to your hijack about how a “negative” OP about an abortion provider/pro-choice group would not have been met with calls for a cite.

It’s off-topic. You may have your own opinions about how such an OP would be greeted here on the SDMB. Just open another thread and have at it.

To get the thread back on topic, do you think it misleading that Birthright says “We want you to know the many options available to you,” but don’t mention abortion? Do you think that feminism/anti-feminism is a factor?

Thanks in advance for your response.

36

Why do you keep on insisting that I am talking about EVERY Birthright, when I have consistently described the “Birthright” I am referring to as being “in my town”, etc.

I think you’re reading something that isn’t there.

FTR, I do consider ALL Birthrights to be anti-woman, in that they are not allowing the women who come through their doors to make well-informed choices, when they clearly have the ability and resources to do so.

But when talking about specific incidents and practices, I have made it clear from my OP that I was talking about my old hometown’s Birthright alone.

37

Well Polycarp was praising the group in general, you started a new thread…telling an anecdote about Birthright in your town…and the LAST SENTENCE of your OP is

Gee…I wonder why I thought you were talking about Birthright as an organization?

:rolleyes:

Ahh…so you were criticizing ALL Birthrights…you just chose not to give the REAL reason in the OP…right…

:rolleyes:

As regards to the “anti-women” aspect of Birthright…even another pro choice poster seems to “get it”. Polycarp says

Perhaps not common sense to everyone though…

BTW, since Polycarp DOES seem to support Birthright in his postings…and you say “To support a group like Birthright is anti-feminist.”…I can assume you consider Polycarp to be anti-feminist. Right?

38

I have no personal experience with Birthright. I went to the link you provided (as stated in an earlier post), and found no mention of their organization being “anti-choice,” “pro-life,” “anti-abortion,” etc. I saw no mention of their stance on abortion in either their mission statement or in the detailing of the services they provide. I believe that this organization does not have to mention any of these things, or provide any information on abortion services. My only problem is that they mention the “many options” available and omit abortion without disclosing their position. I find this misleading. Do you?

39

No.

If I go to an orthopedic surgeon to discuss “options” for my knee…do you know that he has the audacity to not include chiropractic care or holistic healing in his list of options?

If I go to a chiropractic practioner in town with complaints about my knee, I guarantee you that “surgery” will not be on the “many options” discussed.

Is that misleading?

40

Thanks for your response.
Yes, it is (IMO) misleading.
I think that if you had a problem with your knee that would flare up in 9 months and would affect you for the rest of your life, then you’d want your medical provider to give you as much information as possible to address the problem. You would want to know the “many options” available to you, though some may be unpleasant and could possibly haunt you. You would want to make a discision in the best interest of your health (mental and physical), your potential (for a career, family, friends, etc.) and your life (how could I ever give up my Utlimate Frisbee career? (insert tired, but triumphant, smiley here). You would want your medical provider to give you information that would help you.

If one of the options available to you could not be provided by the orthopedic surgeon, wouldn’t you be bothered that he/she didn’t give you a referral to the chiropractor or information regarding holistic healing if it meant that another, perfectly valid procedure was available? ( I understand that many people do not think that abortion is a “valid” procedure. I confess that I do not know your opinion. Your objections to this thread may be nothing more (not that that’s not enough!) to the “liberal bias” you may perceive on this board or your interest in fairness.)
Besides, a knee is not an unwanted pregnancy. But, you already knew that didn’t you? If you don’t mind, why don’t we take a break for a bit so that I can light a cigarette using your straw man? Then we can discuss the weather in Iowa. Is Davenport close to Grundy Center? I miss it there. (Please don’t misunderstand my intent here, I am interested about things in Iowa and am pleased to see that you live there.)

Or, we could discuss whether Birthright (using your example above) should even be considered a medical provider or a counseling service (they, IMO, portray themselves to be these things).

In all honesty, I don’t know what they are. Are they a medical provider (pregnancy tests, pre-natal information), a counseling service (referrals to legal and social service agencies–and I’d be interested, just as catsix was, in seeing what type of referrals they provide) or a charity (free clothing)? Since they claim to offer “many options,” including medical services, do you think that they have an obligation (moral, political, social, religious) to state their position on abortion?

Be well.