In my town, the Birthright group refuses help to pregnant women and new mothers who did not come to them for anti-abortion “counselling” first. They have no interest in helping babies who are not trophies in their anti-choice fight. I would hardly call that a “decent element”. (YMMV, I really can’t say if this is a peccadillo of my city’s Birthright alone, or the mandate of the entire group. Even if it was, I doubt they would admit it outright.)
As for feminists, most of them are really more interested in supporting groups who do not use propaganda and scare tactics to coerce women. Their interest lies in, you know, educating women about their CHOICES and allowing them to CHOOSE the paths that are right for them. To support a group like Birthright is anti-feminist.
Thanks for posting that, lola. The group I’m aware of is about 100 miles southwest of you, and does engage in help to any single mother, with particular emphasis on teenage girls who are pregnant. This is based on IRL discussions with a pro-life member of our former church who is a strong supporter of the group.
AFAIK, that “no help unless counseling first” bit is not a part of the overall program, and may be a Montreal-group specific. But I can’t speak to that.
Anybody else know more about the (national/international) program than lola or I do, and who is willing to address the open questions?
The one I used to volunteer for did do counseling, but they also had a clothing closet and did free pregnancy tests for anyone who wanted one.
When I think of the term “anti feminist” I think of those who are attempting to get rid of laws that require abortion clinics to educate women about fetal development and the medical side of abortion before they have one – at the request of the patient. Hard to make a choice when you don’t have all the facts and all. Wonder why they don’t want women to know about stuff like that. It’s a mystery.
In an awful teenage moment, caused by a late period and excessive paranoia, I went to a Birthright centre for a pregnancy test and I didn’t realize what their political affiliation was. They were very nice to me but, as I recall, didn’t even mention abortion as a possibile solution to my situation. That’s not quite ‘empowering’ - it was offering me all choices except one, a rather important one.
I don’t know what I would have done if the test had been positive and they had not offered the possibility of an abortion. Would I have asked? Would I have left and found somewhere that would offer it? Would I have felt pressured into something that I didn’t want at the time (ie a child), and am, in retrospect, very very glad to not have had at that time?
Offering women choices means offering them choices, and trusting them to make these choices themselves. Pretending that one option (one that is chosen regularly by perfectly intelligent and mature women) doesn’t exist is somewhat irresponsible.
I don’t know much about Planned Parenthood, but my impression (which could be entirely misguided) is that they offer the services Birthright does, PLUS offering support for abortions. Can anyone confirm this?
And Polycarp, with all due respect, perhaps a woman who is avowedly pro-life does not have the best perspective on the experiences a woman who wanted an abortion may have?
I don’t expect a group that believes abortion to be immoral to suggest that as an available option; that’s purely common sense.
What I was praising Birthright for is that, instead of taking the self-righteous view that “a woman should pay for her mistakes” (that’s a direct quote from at least two recent comments by pro-lifers, one here and one on another board I belong to), they take the practical position, “If a woman is going to carry a child to term, she may need help, and we’ll provide it for her, so that doing so becomes an economically/socially feasible option for her.”
Even if you find abortion totally acceptable, I think you will feel that that’s a reasonable position to take if a woman chooses not to abort.
I’m not looking at it from the perspective of people offering data on the initial choice – that’s been beaten to death in other threads – but in the fact that a pregnant woman may well need help, and they provide it for her (Kung Fu Lola’s information on the Montreal group indicating there are exceptions.
Am I saying Birthright is correct in opposing abortions? Not on your life – we’ve had that debate two dozen times, and I’ve made clear where I stand. But I’m making it plentifully clear that I approve of the idea of offering practical help to girls and women who have chosen to carry to term. In this they are head and shoulders above the assholes who think that pregnancy should be a punishment for the sin of having sex without benefit of clergy.
Snoopy Fan, this is not an abortion debate – unless the OP chooses to make it one. Suffice it to say that nobody is doing a perfect job of presenting all the options with all the background data in a completely objective manner – that’s probably impossible.
I was complimenting a group on the opposite side from me in this debate for having the common decency to follow through in compassion and caritas to provide practical support for people who take their advice. Period. And kung fu lola gave me an instance of a local group which attached strings to their help – offensively, IMHO. That’s why this thread.
From what I can tell on the Birthright International and Planned Parenthood of NYC websites, it seems the two really can’t be compared. Planned Parenthood mainly provides medical services- abortions, yes, but also pregnancy testing, HIV testing,counseling and case management, testing and treatment for other STD’s, contraception, GYN care , contraception and assistance in obtaining Medicaid and Child Health Plus ( a NYS insurance program for children). They offer “pregnancy options counseling”, which is not described on the website, but since the “Facts of Life Line” section titled “Pregnancy/Options/Parental care” includes messages about adoption, prenatal care ,nutrition during pregnancy and feeding your baby, I would assume that the options counseling includes those topics. They don’t appear to offer any direct services to women who plan to give birth, but may very well provide referrals during the counseling.I can’t fault them for not directly providing baby clothes or pre-natal care any more than I could fault a pre-natal clinic for not directly providing baby clothes or abortions. Birthright, on the other hand, appears to provide emotional support, pregnancy testing and maternity and baby clothing directly. Other needs ( medical, legal, adoption, counseling, housing) are dealt with either by referrrals or by providing information.
I won’t dispute anyone’s account of their local Birthright, but it appears that Birthright International focuses on women who are facing an unplanned pregnancy, not those who have already given birth. According to their website they don’t picket abortion clinics, lobby for legislative changes or use scare tactics or pressure.
I guess they figure by not stating in their ads or on their billboards that once the person comes through the door they can hammer away at ‘keep the baby’ or ‘adoption’ and figure that girl or woman won’t even ask about abortion as an option.
Get 'em through the door, and once they find out you’re anti-abortion only, it’ll be ‘too late’ for them to go somewhere else.
Well, it is not as if they lock the woman up for nine months. I find the practices of the group pitted in the OP offensive, but is hardly the case that the legaility of abortion is some secret that can be hidden from society for weeks (or even days) at a time.
In my old hometown in Ontario, they would show women a propaganda film called “The Silent Scream”.
I can’t imagine a medical facility that would not see fit to inform a patient of the realities and risks of a medical procedure they were about to undergo, no matter what the procedure was. This part of your post sounds rather misinformed. Are you really referring to laws that also require “waiting periods” that reduce rural women’s access to safe and legal abortions?
I don’t see what “fetal development” has to do with the economical and emotional realities of impending motherhood? I don’t see how it’s relevant. Besides, there are libraries, which have all that info, you know. They’re free! In my case, in the same town that houses Birthright, there is a “healthy babies” initiative run by the (pro-choice) County Health Unit, which teaches mothers-to-be all about proper prenatal nutrition, as well as providing food boxes.
Polycarp, I should clarify that the town I am referring to is a mid-size one in Ontario, not Montreal. It’s where I used to live before I pulled up my roots and set down new ones, all for lurve.
Well, a lot of us object to FALSE information being given to pregnant women, and to the 24 hour wait, which will cause a great hardship to those women who do not have an abortion clinic anywhere near them. I wonder why some people want to give out FALSE medical information? The only reason I can think of is to scare women out of having an abortion.
I’ve been in a few women’s clinics that provide abortons among their other services. In each clinic, there was a large sign advising patients (in at least two languages) that they had choices, which included carrying to term, raising the child themselves, adoption, or abortion. All the clinics were prepared to support a woman who wanted to carry a child to term, if that’s what she wanted.
Actually, according to the accounts cited on this website, there are plenty of pro-life women who know exactly what it means to want and to have an abortion.
I went through Health class, so I know what a baby looks like at every stage of development (pretty much - not a day by day picture or anything). Health was a mandatory class where I went to school, so unless someone slept through it, I dunno how they wouldn’t know what a baby looked like.
Since this isn’t an pro-life/pro-choice thread, I won’t say anything about either.
But I think information should be given, of course. And options. But abortion is an option, too.
However, I’m rather glad that there’s a Pro-Life group out there who isn’t trying to push for legislation.
I guess you didn’t read my links. I’m objecting in part to the law we now have in Texas, which tells women that there’s a link between abortion and breast cancer. Many, many well-respected scientific agencies say that this link is false. In the women’s clinics where I worked, most pregnant women got ultrasounds, whether they were planning to get an abortion, carry it to term, or were undecided. I also object to the 24 hour waiting period imposed by law. Many, many Texas counties do not have an abortion provider, and a 24 hour waiting period imposes additional financial burdens to less-affluent women. I’ve talked to many, many women who were about to get an abortion. Most of them mentioned that they had thought long and hard about their decision.
I have to say that I’ve had experiences with women similar to the experiences related in mhendo’s link.
My experience with abortion clinics (personal, volunteering) is that they do provide the women who come through the doors with exactly this type of information (stage of the pregnancy, development of the fetus, “what it looks like”). In fact, one clinic with which I have experience actually allows women to see the results from the vaginal ultrasounds they complete before a “medical” abortion, e.g. with mifepristone and misoprostol.
The idea is to give women enough information to make an informed decision. It does not benefit a clinic or medical practice to keep this information secret. I have experience with Planned Parenthood in Califormia and Nevada, and private practices in Nevada.
SnoopyFan, I understand that you oppose opportion, and I respect that you have the courage of your convictions. But you do your convictions a disservice by throwing around unsubstantiated opinions. At least provide some evidence (even if it is anedoctal, like mine) of your experience with “abortion clinics,” and let the discussion continue.
It has been my experience that abortion providers are looking out for the best interests of their patients, which include providing information about alternatives to abortion (including adoption), support services (for carrying the child to term, should that be the woman’s choice), details about fetal development, risks involving the procedure, and then an opportunity for the woman to ask any and all questions about the procedure she is considering.
On preview…I share Ms. Bodoni’s concerns about mandatory waiting periods (I live in a rural area where it is difficult to find transportation (especially for a young woman) to providers that can be 150+ miles away. And, I would really like to see continued researched into the supposed breast cancer link.
Do you have firsthand knowledge of the practices of the local Birthright in your town?
I find it interesting that you didn’t even make an effort to find out what the “mandate” of Birthright International is…you know, by like checking their website?
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Lovely of you to slam an entire organization with (unsubstantiated) accusations against one local affiliate…because I know no one has ever had a bad experience at a Planned Parenthood affiliate…right? :dubious:
If someone came in her and slammed PPs professionalism (well the PP is my town treated women like shit yadda yadda…with no supporting evidence), I suspect folks might be just a wee bit more reluctant to form conclusions about PP as a whole…I suspect that they would want more substantial proof about the nature of PP.
With respect, I would like to ask if you have any personal experience with Planned Parenthood. Any negative experiences?
The reason I ask is that I have had much experience with them (as outlined in my previous post) and other abortion providers and have not had a negative experience or heard of a single negative experience. Your post seems to indicate that you have or that you have information (a cite, perhaps?) regarding them.
Since you used this as an example in your post criticizing kung fu lola, I thought it only fair that you back up what I read as a slam against Planned Parenthood. I apologize if I have misread you.
I suspect that a lot of this evidence might be anedoctal (as mine was), but if you have first-hand knowledge, please share.
As it reads to me, kung fu lola’s post stems from first-hand information. I’d be happy to be corrected, if necessary. And I read a question in her post (“Is this how it is everywhere?”)
I won’t speak on the feminism angle, as I believe that it conflates two different issues. Not that kung fu lola shouldn’t link them (after all, that is her opinion). Perhaps fodder for another thread (in, like, six or seven months when the bad aftertaste of all of the recent feminist/anti-feminist threads has gone).