Bitch about stupid ass financial aid requirements (mild)

Stafford is the privately funded program out from which schools can now opt.

Re: someone’s mention of Georgetown above – private schools require parental information for just about everyone because the cost of a Georgetown(for example) is way higher than the total of everything the feds would offer. Most students who receive financial aid at private institutions receive all the federal and, if applicable, state funding they’re eligible for, then the school kicks in with institutional grants or other programs administered and funded solely by the school. The feds figure what the student is “able” to contribute; if the student is dependent according to the federal definition, they figure out how much the parents (custodial and otherwise) are “able” to contribute; they determine the federal funding eligibility. Many states do something similar. If a student who qualifies as independent under federal guidelines shows up with a remaining need of, say, $35,000 – then, Georgetown or whatever college is going to ask some searching questions about who else might have $35,000 before offering their own money.

Yes, it’s kind of the size of a Birth Certificate, and it says ‘‘Certificate of Emancipation’’ with an official seal and everything, and you have to take it everwhere you need to prove you’re legally an adult.

Does Kay provide more than half of her girlfriend’s financial support? If so, then her girlfriend may count as a “legal dependent other than a child”. Does the girlfriend provide more than half of Kay’s support? If so, then she may be a dependent of her girlfriend and her girlfriend may be able to claim her as a dependent and…take out a loan for her. The first is a much stronger position, financial-aid-wise.

I was in college when the rules changed, and it was very easy to be an independent student. All you had to do was claim you didn’t live with your parents, that they didn’t provide more than half of your support, and that they didn’t list you as a dependent on their tax return. It was actually too easy- nearly everyone I knew lied and claimed that they didn’t live with their parents (after all, their bedroom was in the basement), and that their parents neither supported them or claimed them on tax returns. In actuality, their parents completely supported them (even to the extent of tuition and books) and the financial aid ( in some cases more than the tuition) was their spending money. I suspect that , as in most things, the scammers ruined it for everyone. There’s a limited amount of money that we, as a society, are willing to spend on financial aid for college and a limited amount that we are willing to spend on deciding who will get it.

It sucks to be "Kay", but in my experience , she's a relatively rare case. I didn't know a single person in five years at my very large college who didn't get some help from their parents (at the very least, free rent). My kids' friends are getting help from their parents and my coworkers ( even those without high-paying jobs) are helping their kids at least to the extent of providing room and board. I know exactly one student who is going to be truly independent next year- and that's only because he's choosing to board at a public community college 100 miles away rather than the similar public community college within commuting distance of home. I actually know more people  (4) who were supported by their parents significantly past the age of 24- one of whom was supported by his parents (including tuition payments) through the eight years it took him to get a bachelors, and another couple for an MBA.    

“Kay” really should speak to the financial aid office and seek a determination that she is independent for two reasons. Number one, it doesn’t cost the school anything to change her dependency status based on the appropriate documentation (which is going to require more than tax returns). Number two, schools are not required to use the Federal formula when they are giving out their own grants and scholarships. In the same way that Georgetown can ask about a 33 year old’s parental income, they can also decide not to take into account a 22 year old’s parental income.

No, I don’t think so at least. I think they both have McJobs. (Her girlfriend [who’s a bit older] does have a child, but I don’t think Kay would be able to declare it.)


Totally off subject but speaking of expensive schools: My brother’s daughter was interested in Harvard and other Ivy League schools (before settling on a state school, where her dad bought her a condo saying it would be a lot cheaper in the long run, especially since they’d sell the condo when she and possibly her brother [if he goes there] graduate). I was asking him about the cost of attendance.
I’m not sure I understood him correctly and I haven’t really researched the matter, but if I did then apparently Harvard’s tuition is actually income based (sort of). They figure what your family should be able to contribute and what you should get in loans and then give you a figure based on that. If you’re a Kennedy or Rockefeller where money’s absolutely no object then that figure might be $50,000 per year, if you’re from a single parent state aid receiving home in Arkansas (in a year when they’re looking for Arkansans- they have a complex and somewhat random seeming formula each year for geography and race and legacies and the like) then your bill might be $150, and if you’re like my niece (whose parents are well off by most American standards/really well off by Alabama standards but not multimillionaires to my knowledge- i.e. they have a lot of money but certainly not inexhaustible) it’ll be perhaps $30,000 per year. (The figures are drawn from the air.) There is a flat tuition rate of course, but if I understand correctly the fact that they’ve got a sagan endowment (i.e. billions and billions) allows them to subsidize to the point that nobody is turned down because of inability to pay.
Anyone know if
1- I understood this correctly
2- Other rich schools do this?

  1. More or less - yeah. They figure out how much they think your family can pay, you should be able to pay yourself if you have a student job, etc. and then give grants/loans/other forms of aid to make up the difference between that number and the actual cost of tuition. There, the idea is that lack of money shouldn’t keep talented kids out of the school.

  2. Yes. In fact, they used to all get together, pool their information, and come up with a number that “Jane Doe” would pay no matter which of the Ivies, Seven Sisters, and a couple of other similar top tier schools she went to. It might have been a slightly different loan/grant/scholarship balance, but how much actual cash was needed would be pretty much the same. Then, in the early 90s, they got busted for anti-trust violations. There, they claimed the idea was that a kid shouldn’t choose Harvard over Smith because of money, but because one was a better fit for her.

1-Pretty close.
2-Nobody else does anything exactly like Harvard, adn I don’t know the full Harvard story. Most private schools with endowments do it/did it like this:

The cost of one year of education at Moneybags-Alumni College is calculated like this:

Tuition $50,000
Room and Board $19,000 (with a different number for off-campus students)
Books $2500
Travel $2500 (depends on distance student is from “home”. The dorms aren’t open all year, so the student has to go somewhere)
Personal Expenses $1000 (shampoo, etc.)

Total: $75,000

Kid Rockefeller
MA-C Admissions Person: Dad Rockefeller, how much money is in Kid Rockefeller’s college account?
Dad Rockefeller: $375,000
MA-C Admissions Person: So, there’s no need for you to apply for financial aid. Would you like to pay $200,000 now for four years of tuition to lock in the cost of Kid’s education, even if the Board of Governors votes, as they do every summer, to raise tuition?

Kid Middleclass
Dad Middleclass, the feds have determined that you and your wife have the ability to pay $30,000 this year.
Dad Middleclass: That’s Kid’s entire college fund is only $21,000! I wish it was more, but you know …the markets and the price of gas… Where does the other $9000 come from.
MA-C Financial Aid Person: That’s right, but financial aid is re-calculated every year and next year you won’t have that account any more, so it won’t count against you.
B]Dad Middleclass:Count against us?!
MA-C Financial Aid Person: Right. And the $9000 is the portion of your income in the upcoming year that you can spare for Kid’s education.
B]Mom (nee Yoda) Middleclass:
Shitting us you are.
MA-C Financial Aid Person: And Kid can contribute $4000.
Kid Middleclass That’s all my babysitting money plus the $200 Grandma gave me for graduating high school.
MA-C Financial Aid Person: Right, so that’s $34,000. No Pell Grants for you. We can offer Kid an on-campus job in the library. Ten hours a week at $10 per hour for thirty-five weeks; Kid can earn the shampoo and airfare money. That brings us up to $37,500, with a remaining deficit of $37,500. Our school still participates in the Stafford loan program, so we can qualify Kid for a Stafford Loan of $7500. That brings us up to $45,000. $30k left to go. We try not to encourage parents to become indebted for their childrens’ educations, so - while we will certify a PLUS loan if you want to spare Kid from the library job…
Dad Middleclass: We don’t.
MA-C Financial Aid Person: Either way, a Moneybags-Alumni College institutional grant of $30,000 will make up the difference between the the $45,000 in family contribution, student contribution, Stafford Loan and Work-Study and the required total of $75,000. Do you want to accept this award of financial aid.
The Middleclass Family: Yep. sure. Guess so.
MA-C Financial Aid Person: Sign here and here and initial here.

Kid Nuthin
MA-C Financial Aid Person: So, it says here that you were orphaned on your 18th birthday.
Kid Nuthin: Yes, that’s right. And there was no inheritance. I spent my babysitting money to have my parents cremated.
MA-C Financial Aid Person: The feds say you are an independent student with the ability to pay absolutely nothing. You have, however, been accepted here at M-A C and we have an institutional commitment to meet 100% of demonstrated financial need. You need $75,000. Your Pell Grants will come to $4000. You can have $3500 of work-study. $7500 in a Stafford Loan. That’s $15,000. So, we need to come up with $60,000 more. That’ll be in an institutional grant.
Kid Nuthin Gee, thanks.

Or, that’s how it used to be, though the numbers I used are closer to now than then.

I ran into this. I went to a cheap state school. My last couple of years, I still found that I could not cover the costs with A. Stafford student loans, B. Parent PLUS loans from my folks, and C. a 30-hour a week student job (which actually paid substantially more than minimum wage). I qualified for exactly zero grants, on the basis that my parents could still (barely) cover their bills, and this clearly meant that they had gobs of money left over. The number they came up with for what my folks “should” have been paying for my education was hilarious. Tithing to a church would have been cheaper.

I have no idea how I did it. Oh wait, yes I do – I still owe them money. And owe my grandfather other money. And I spent a lot of my undergrad not-quite-literally starving. Also, I tried to pick my random fill-in electives from a list of classes I could pass without the books.

The irony is that my parents are complete fruitcakes. I broke down and went to a counselor who worked at the university shortly before my graduation and told him exactly what horrible, insane things my mother was up to just then. I believe he made it all the way to session three before he offered to sign whatever I needed to inform the school officially that my parents would NOT be paying for any portion of my education because it was not in the interest of my continuing mental health to be forced to call them for tax information every year. Emancipation for the purposes of financial aid is apparently different from strict legal emancipation of a minor; you do not have to demonstrate that your parents’ nuttiness has directly resulted in financial hardship, you just have to get a mental health professional of some sort to testify that involving your parents in your finances would result in some kind of harm to you. (I suspect that statement finishes “…for which you could subsequently sue the university,” but nobody ever said that outright.) The process does work, at least at my alma mater; another girl whose family is equally bats had everything signed and filed before the first payment was due on her tuition-over-time plan.

And that is it. When the rules were easy to get around, middle class people overwhelmingly worked the rules. Kid Rockefeller’s parents don’t really care one way or the other. Kid Nuthin, you can’t get money from a rock. But for the parents of Kid Middleclass, college is a huge burden. If its a simple as lying on college admissions or letting your 18 year old be independent in an apartment for a year to save yourself $150k in tuition, who doesn’t jump on that?

Add in other problems with the system - 17 year old kids deciding to be Theatre majors, then - with the financial wisdom of a 17 year old - deciding that they MUST get their nearly useless degree from a small private college because the State College just isn’t where they want to be. Dad saying “I put myself through college in 1970 - you should be able to do it too” without any idea of the relative value of a low wage job to tuition. Kids who don’t just need tuition money, but the ability to pay $100 a month cell phone bills and keep up their WoW subscription and “but D&B released a new handbag!”

I put $1600 in my kids college funds THIS MONTH. I have two kids who are in elementary school. Currently, they can live at home and go to a state school with what we’ve saved - and saving that much has been a sacrifice. I know a ton of parents who take multiple vacations every year, drive nice cars, eat out often, and don’t save for their kids college - the kid will get a scholarship, or barring that - financial aid.

Its a shame people like Kay get caught in a system designed to block people who have good incomes and think that they shouldn’t take responsibility for their kid’s college. You know what, I’m even fine with people saying they aren’t going to take responsibility for their kids college - but then it shouldn’t become the state’s immediate responsibility.

I understand that about private schools. Just the other private schools that I was discussing stuff with (Vandy and Penn) had no interest whatsoever in my parental income. Hence Georgetown slipping down the list.

My mom died of breast cancer a couple of months before my eighteenth birthday. The dog grooming businesses she’d spent ten years building up had to be sold within months of that, probably at a loss, because no one else was capable of running things. After that, my younger sisters and I were lucky to have food in the house half the time, and we were never better off than lower middle class at the best of times anyway. Dad sold the house about seven or eight months because he couldn’t afford the remaining house payments, and I believe there were still medical bills and other costs that needed to be covered.

I never had a particularly good relationship with my father, and needed to get the hell out of the house before one or the other of us destroyed what was left. I had to live with him for about a month while I got my shit together and got out. From that time on, I had almost no contact with him. I paid for community college myself and worked part time. I got no support from Dad, and frankly he wouldn’t have had much of anything to spare even if we had been on speaking terms.

A bad investment decision based on a friend’s advice wiped out the modest inheritance I’d gotten from Mom’s life insurance. That might have been enough to pay for a cheap school, but nothing with tuition more than about $5,000 or so per semester. I was living on my own, going to school when I could, and working the best jobs I could find, which frankly were absolute shit. I think the best job overall was one I got loading trucks at a friend’s factory.

It took me two years of working full time to save, and begging and borrowing money from whoever I could, to get out of my home town (which I still describe as a boil on the ass of California) and into a full-time school. I applied to six different schools, including my preferred CalPoly in San Luis Obispo, but was only accepted to San Diego. Fine, it was out of the central valley and half a state away from my family, I’d take it.

I had enough for my first semester’s tuition and planned to live in the dorms since I had no way to apartment hunt before I went. The applications for financial aid were sent off before I left, but I was already committed, as in, had paid for the first semester and the dorm fees, by the time they sent back a letter that I needed to submit my parent’s financial information.

Excuse me?! I had barely even talked to my father in three years, and he’d given me no support of any kind from the time I moved out to then. From 18 to 22, I was already on my own, filing my own separate tax returns, and not being claimed on his. In fact, I’d made sure of that when I moved out since if I wasn’t getting money from him I wasn’t about to let him pretend he was so he could get a tax break for it. What the fuck did they need his financial information for?

I petitioned for independent status and had some of my relatives write letters attesting to the fact that my father and I were estranged, but that wasn’t good enough. I had to have people from outside the family. Right :rolleyes: I was working full time, going to school when I could, hardly any social life, and I was a very private person; I still think that you shouldn’t talk about family problems except to people you have a very good relationship with. I asked the guy whose company I was working for, who was my martial arts teacher and had become a good friend, to write a letter. I got the only friend I’d stayed in contact with from high school — one of the few people outside the family I’d told about the situation — to send one too. That was finally enough for them to consider me independent.

Which got me a whopping $1,100 a year in Pell grants and the grudging permission to apply for a combination of subsidized and unsubsidized student loans to pay for living and tuition expenses. Lovely. I’d been living on less than $10,000 a year while going to community college, which was right at the poverty line. If I’d made any less, I probably would have qualified for welfare. And yet, I apparently qualified for no other financial aid because I came from a white middle-class background. I ended up being in debt to the tune of about $20,000 for the remaining three years it took to get my bachelor’s degree. I am still paying those off at age thirty-three.

Yeah, I vehemently agree that financial aid requirements and disbursements suck rotting camel ass.

I can sympathize. I am 26 and married and STILL had to fill out a parental income/savings form for my nursing school financial aid application. It was completely awkward going to my dad and asking him to help me fill it out, all the while repeating over and over that I am honestly not asking him for any money. :frowning:

I hear that med school is the same way. So my old co-workers who were 25 and had been supporting themselves by working while studying for MCATs and building some connections weren’t considered adult enough either. It just perpetuates the idea that med school is for the rich–people whose parents are able to keep putting up for more education well into their kids’ 20s and 30s.

My own limited understanding of the federal financial aid process is that this is not true. For MD and JD programs, you are automatically considered an independent student and it isn’t a difficult thing to accomplish, even at 22 years of age. After that, I think it’s fairly easy to come up with an appropriate mix of subsidized and unsubsidized loans to fund school, but of course you’re still on the hook for a mountain of debt afterward.

However, you’re absolutely right that the admissions process is still very expensive and hard to compete in on an even field without a significant amount of disposable income and I would certainly agree that it contributes to the list of unfair socio-economic factors that feed into professional school admissions.

For purposes of federal funding of graduate and professional degrees, you are automatically considered independent. See way above regarding institutional funding eligibility.

Does it make me a bad person that I find that last sentence just insanely funny? :cool:

No worse than me. See you in hell!

Well, a total stranger sends Kay a hug.

Haven’t been in that extreme a case, but I did end up short my 3rd year of college, by about $3000. I had reached the “limit” I could borrow on my Direct Loan for that year. In 4 years of college that cost damn near $100,000, I only ended up with $15,000 Direct Loan debt, which I think is quite respectable given what I was working with. Nope, I had reached the limit they were willing to loan me. When did they tell me this? Freakin’ mid-July. Great. The rest would have to be covered by scholarships or my personal contribution. Freshman year, I’d had enough one-shot small scholarships to cover the gap. (I mean, not that I’m not grateful for it, but doesn’t the idea of a one-time $500 college scholarship strike anyone else as odd? Well, every little bit helped.)a The next year I lived off campus. The third year, I moved back to campus and they’d raised prices (of course).

(My parents would have cosigned for me, but their credit was in the toilet and they were unemployed and disabled and fighting my dad’s asshole former employer–you had a heart attack partially brought on by stress from this job? that sucks man. eesh…medical leave? uh…well, we were going to fire you at the end of this project anyway. would you like to fill out an application for COBRA?–to pay for medical bills and the social security administration to acknowledge that when a GP, a physical therapist, a cardiologist, and a pschycologist all say a dude’s disabled, he’s fucking disabled already, and it’s honestly not a conspiracy to milk the government for free money. Jackasses. But that’s another rant.)

And then here I was, laden down with scholarships and grants but quite possibly in danger of not being able to afford returning to college because the financial aid office didn’t want to let me borrow another $3000. What little I’d managed to save on my summer job wouldn’t cover it, because I’d had to spend part of it on rent and food, and I’d need the rest for the trip back to campus and books anyway. If I’d backed out and moved off campus again–cheaper for room and board, but less convenient, more stressful, and an upfront investment that I couldn’t afford at the time–the Registrar’s office would still have stuck me with late cancellation penalties for the room and the meal plan. They refused to waive them, even partially. That was a fun summer all around.

I was lucky, though, because it worked out.

I called my financial aid counselor and found out I could ask them to increase the loan amount. Nice of them to mention that before. Well, here I am on the phone with you–can you increase my loan amount? Oh no, we need X, Y, and Z for that. Lady, you have most of that information already, and you just said you could only increase it slightly anyway. How much would you be able to increase it? Oh, we don’t know, it varies. Damn it, is there a limit, and is it imposed by the university or the Dept. of Ed. or are you just fucking with my head here? But I digress…the bureaucracy must be fed.

Well, I did the jumping through hoops thing–here’s my financial situation in plain language, here’s my tax return, my bank statement, pay stubs, here’s my parents’ tax return and their bank statement.

Great, they increased the limit slightly, but oh look, there’s still a rather large gap there. I don’t have to jump across a 50 foot wide hole now, just 30.

My grandfather cosigned for a private loan for me. I thanked him for it, and it was the first one paid off, after I graduated, with a very generous graduation gift I received. I let him know and he received a letter from the bank saying it had been paid in full and the account was closed. He still mentions the damn thing every time I visit, like he’s worried he’ll magically have to pay it himself. sigh

Working your ass off and not having the money anyway sucks.