Bitch about stupid ass financial aid requirements (mild)

This pisses me off but I’m afraid I’m low on venom at the moment so it’s mild.

I have a student worker I like a lot: I’ll call her “Kay”. She’s a very intelligent and good person and good at her job. She’s 22, she’s been on her own since she was 18 (working class struggling mom with other kids, deadbeat dad) and she’s going to have to drop out of college because she doesn’t have the money and can’t get a loan. Here’s why:

Her mom has terrible credit- one of those “too rich to be poor and to poor for anything else” people who’s about $500 a year over the threshold for state aid and consequently always in arrears on all bills because she’s old school honorable (i.e. she’s not going to quit work and go on relief- I respect that, but I’m not sure I’d be as proud when she’d ironically live better with a lower paying job). Anyway, her credit’s just kerplunk.

The student’s dad owes her mom about $30,000 that she’ll never see- never paid support, went to jail a couple of times for non-payment, has outstanding judgments against him, put everything in new wife’s name, etc… In other words, he’s not good for a penny of help to his ex-wife or any of his kids (of whom there are at least 3 ranging from teenaged to Kay).

Okay, Kay’s mom took out Parent’s Loans for Underaged Students (PLUS- not exactly sure if that’s what it stands for) but can’t take anymore due to credit. She could technically get an endorser (or co-signer), but…

1- there’s a problem finding someone willing to sign for $20,000 in unsecured loans (I’ll be honest- I wouldn’t do it for someone I didnt’ know really well and have total faith in)
2- because she’s always a day later and a dollar short on payments her mom herself knows there’s a good chance she’ll default
3- Hi Opal

So Kay, who at 22 is only a sophomore because she didn’t start school until she was 20 (but is a good student) is going to have to drop out of school. She’s willing to take out a loan in her own name, and since she’s a good student and the field she’s in is legal studies she stands an excellent chance of either getting a decent paying paralegal job right out of college or of going to law school if she so desires, but because of the way the government loans are set up she can’t.

For those not familiar, the requirements to be an independent student are that you have to meet one of the following:

1- you have to be 24 years of age
2- you have to be married
3- you have to be in the armed forces or a veteran
4- you have to have a child
5- you have to demonstrate extreme hardship of the sort that led to emancipation while a minor
6- you’re an orphan
7- you have legal dependents (children or otherwise)

And none of those apply.

Technically you can appeal the decision to be declared independent, but it’s a major pain in the ass and rarely successful. It used to be a bit easier- almost pro forma if you got the right person- but it’s a lot harder to get declared independent now. Ultimately it’s up to bureaucrats and overworked Financial Aid Officers and they rarely see things your way (and rarely see students as individuals with houses and toasters and working at Waffle House but just as SSNs and paperwork- used to piss me off so much when I worked for these people that they had such ‘hurry up and wait’ attitudes towards people on the verge of being expelled).

Then there’s the whole gay marriage issue. What’s that have to do with it you ask?

Well, Kay is a lesbian you see, which I mention because she’s been in a monogamous relationship with her girlfriend for about 3 years- they live together, share bills together, and all that makes a marriage together. But of course they’re not and can’t be legally married so that doesn’t count.

Ironically if she’d go out and get pregnant that would get her back into school. One person she spoke with at another school (she tried to get into state schools when this one [I work at a private college] wouldn’t budge) suggested she join the army (her response “No! Because I never wanted to join the army and besides I’m here, I’m queer, and there’s a motherfucking WAR ON!”). She has a chance of getting in at a Historically Black College & University (HBCU) because they have more minority scholarships and the like, but she’d have to change her major and she’d lose a lot of credits and frankly we’re not talking Tuskegee or Morehouse but a mostly crappy state college that just happens to be predominantly black.

I swear that if I didn’t think it would come back to bite me in the ass big time I’d have a paper marriage with her as there’s absolutely nothing illegal about that; it’s not like a green card marriage where you’ll be checked on to make sure it’s valid and all, it’s just a “yep I’m married- my husband’s gay and I don’t live with him and couldn’t tell you his middle name or his dogs’ names, but here’s my wedding license- loan please”- but I’m afraid that if I married her I’d either immediately find someone I much preferred to assist or I’d find out about a $12,000 penalty never before enforced for interracial marriage between a gay white male and a much younger black lesbian in Alabama for purposes of financial aid for legal studies degree, or I’d suddenly find out that Kay’s lover is a paranoid schizophrenic who has decided we’re really doing the nah-nah and is going to feed me to a blender, or whatever. While those aren’t likely, there would be likely repercussions of some sort as you know- you don’t do marriage lightly, especially for someone who isn’t really in desperate need. (Last time I considered one of those straight marriage thingies, incidentally, was for one of the employees I supervised at another university; she had a son- adorable kid- who was burned and had facial scars that for some reason or other couldn’t be covered by Medicaid and other state insurance but were covered by private insurance- we actually talked about getting married, letting me put the kid on my insurance, and going from there, but deus ex machina- a Congressman she’d written to came through in getting him treatment (that Congressman is Artur Davis, incidentally- great great guy and not just because of that, though in terms of money one of the 5 poorest Reps (negative 250k net worth)…

Sorry, I digress.

The point is that if this were just Kay I wouldn’t be pitting the Direct Loan agency’s requirements, but I’ve known many students who fell through this hole in the sidewalk. My own ex-boyfriend had this problem right down to the deadbeat dad/terrible credit mom and add to this that he hadn’t received a nickel from either parent since he was 16 and wasn’t even on speaking terms with his parents. I’ve known students in three states now who had to drop out because of some variation on this theme, and all because 24 is an absurdly old age to require for independent status (who here was not being counted on another person’s taxes [other than perhaps for Head of Household exemption] at 23?).

I have other problems with Federal loans (I used to work for them if I haven’t mentioned it). Ironcially one of my beefs is that I think they’re too ridiculously easy for most people to get- you wouldn’t believe how many people I used to speak to on a daily basis when I worked for [a] Dept. of Ed [contractor] who had borrowed $120,000 and had a B.A. and some grad work in Theater or some other “license to print money” degree that they now couldn’t make the payments on, or people who had foreclosures and repos on their credit but got loans no problem because they were independent and these weren’t credit based. But this “you’re not an adult until you’re 24” and “if you’d just be straight and cohabit with someone who has opposing genitalia you could marry them and be done withit” crap is irritating.

And don’t do drugs.

Just curious- anyone else had this problem?

Since this is pretty mild feel free to bitch about financial aid problems in general.

Been there, done that, bought the tshirt, had to wait until I was 25 and married to afford college. I think the 24 y.o. rule is bullshit. I can vote, but I can’t take out a loan?

I hear ya. I couldn’t get aid until my sister started going to college. My parents on paper made more than the maximum income (huge debts though), so until she started going to school (and the EFC was divided between the 2 of us) I couldn’t get squat.

But here’s the kicker: At the time, my sister was 27 and living at home with no bills to pay other than her cell phone bill. My parents completely supported her. I lived on my own and paid all my own bills. When we both finally got aid, she ended up getting more than me because she was an independent student!

Honestly? I was pretty much in the same position at that age. I dropped out for a year to get residency so my tuition would be in-state. Then I went back part-time for a few years, and then when I’d hit the magical age I went back full-time with the help of financial aid. I just saw it as what I had to do. If this is something she’s commited to, she’ll make it happen. Lots of students do all the time.

Yeah, financial aid is ridiculous in many ways, but on the other hand I knew a girl who qualified for Pell Grants because her mother was poor, when the girl’s education - and whatever else costs - beyond Pell Grants was covered in full by her dad and step-mom, both rich. Were they taking advantage of the system? Hell, yes, they were. And if you could qualify for financial aid on your own earnings at the age of 18, a cubic buttload of parents would emancipate their kids, at least on paper, to scam the system.

The thing that I don’t understand about the 24 year old rule is that the parents of an 18 year old have no legal obligation to pay for your college. They can tell you to go fuck yourself, that they aren’t going to give you a handshake on the way out the door.

But then you try to get a loan for college, you have to list your parents’ income and tax returns to get a loan. Well, hell, you are 18, legally an adult according to the law, but have to rely on your parents on this hand, but they aren’t required to provide on the other hand.

Then you can’t even buy a six pack to drown your sorrows…

Emancipate? Kids? They are legally adults at age 18. Just because some if not most parents would love to help them out with college shouldn’t impose a legal burden on them to rely on their parents…

Tell me about it. I’m currently 24 and have completed a B.A. a few years ago. Last year I looked into possibly taking some computer science courses in my free time, maybe getting an associates and some certificates. Nope, no possibility of financial aid. I applied to a grad school and got financial aid out the wazoo. I guess somehow the government thinks that a Masters degree in Crminal Justice is going to make me more employable than a B.A. in Criminal Justice and a bunch of CS certificates. It makes no sense!

Shit, I’m so lucky I was emancipated. I still had to get six signed letters attesting to the fact that I was receiving no financial assistance from anyone. It was a pain in the ass to prove I qualified (legal emancipation wasn’t enough for my school, you had to jump through a bunch of other hoops too), but once I qualified, they were practically throwing money at me. I got an $80k education for $10k.

This really does piss me off.

And the ‘‘gay marriage’’ part of the complication REALLY pisses me off.

I give this Pit a 10 for content.

It wouldn’t hurt for her to go to the financial aid office or career center–wherever they have scholarship information–to see if she qualifies for anything. I’ve had students get scholarships for people who’ve done their time for felonies, LGBTQ, ineligible for aid, minorities, women returning to school, etc., not to mention a few excellent but indigent students who got full tuition including two years of master’s study as long as they kept their GPAs up. If none of that works, can she afford a course or two a term at community college in order to meet any core or general education requirements she still has?

Not a student loan, but sort of analogous: back in the day, a friend had horrendous problems getting welfare because you have to not have lived with your parents for some number of years, when in fact the whole reason he needed welfare in the first place was because his parents had kicked him out for being queer.

(This was the same friend who, once he got welfare and was applying for work was ordered to remove his experience with queer organizations from his CV because, the social worker said, nobody would hire him with it on there and therefore he wasn’t serious about getting work, so if he didn’t remove it they’d cut his benefits. This was before we were in the Canadian Human Rights Act, so at least there’s that.)

EXACTAMUNDO! And a lot of parents don’t feel obligated to pay for college.

There are also a lot like my own mother who did feel obligated and desperately wanted to help, but when I was 18 (19, 20, 21, 22, and 23 for that matter) she was dead broke and deeply in debt. It wasn’t an option. That’s why I graduated college at 28.

Pardon me for going off topic, but something I’ve wondered: when you’re a legally emancipated minor is there a particular form or paper or legal document that you’re given? I was wondering how you prove this when, say, you need to rent an apartment or apply for loans or pretty much anything.

I don’t understand this. I was given federal loans for law school and I’m 22 and I don’t fit the other criteria listed. Is there a separate rule for colleges or something?

Your loan is probably federally guaranteed but not federally funded. If the monies are provided by private lenders the rules can be more flexible. Some colleges opt to use private lenders only, while private lenders L-O-V-E to deal with federally guaranteed loans because it’s literally a no-lose proposition; if you default the government will pay it back. (Regulations have gotten a bit stricter in recent years though.) Federal Direct Loans are funded directly by the government from tax money and you’ve no choice but to play by their rules.

Or, you may just have a much more generous/flexible(/reasonable) Financial Aid Office.

It’s a crappy system. My brother-in-law and his girlfriend (now wife) both took time off from school until they were 24 and could get loans. In both cases, their parents paid for the first two years of college, but didn’t/wouldn’t pay for the last two. Both sets of parents are well-off, so on paper, it looked like their kids could easily afford college.

You think that’s ridiculous? I’m** 33 years old** and being asked to provide my parents tax returns (plural, and dad hasn’t been my custodial parent in 27 years) for financial aid for nursing school. I’m like, “Dude! I’m so old it would be *rude *for me to ask my parent’s salaries!” and they’re all like, “Sorry, we need the information to apply for this aid.” Fuck it. I can still get Pell Grants, thank goodness, and I’ll just go to the cheap crappy city college instead of one of the dozen of fantastic ones around here. Really, it’s okay. I think it’s been almost three months since they found the last murdered body in the basement. (I really wish I was kidding.) :rolleyes:

I’m with you there, WhyNot. 33, married, and a kid (one of the above three still applies…) and Georgetown would not process my financial aid application (for law school) without full parental income and asset information. That was a bizarre phone conversation.

So I ended up at Vandy, who realized that someone our age probably isn’t going to be going cap in hand to our parents for graduate school.

Hallelujah, Sampiro.

I was a child of those “rich” parents who refused to contribute a dime to my college education. I had no way of getting milk from their teats but couldn’t get a penny of financial support.

Yeah, really, WTF? Never met an employer who gave a crap about which school you got your undergraduate degree from. The best that ugrads do, in my observation, is to get your foot into a good grad school. My friend got farking hired by Google last year, is one of their youngest senior programmers, skews the Salary.com average, and he doesn’t even have a degree at all.

Don’t ask about the guy I interviewed who had a PhD and a MS and a BS in computer science, but couldn’t figure out how to write code that decided if a number was odd or even…

All praise the mighty Sampiro.

I’m pretty sure the rules are different for graduate and professional school.

Ah, good call. If it’s grad school that’s it then. I knew there was something else I forgot that makes you independent, and it’s completion of an undergraduate degree.
Demanding parents income information for 30-somethings is a total new one on me. Half the people I’ve known had at least one parent who was dead by the time their kids were in their 30s. If your parents are alive when you’re in their 30s and even if they were young when you were born (20s) and have good jobs, they’re still of an age when they need to be saving/preparing for retirement in a few years and can’t really be expected to help that much. That’s utterly ridiculous.

Ah, so that’s why. I looked up the PLUS loan and it is only available to to graduate students. Undergraduates have to have their parents apply. I didn’t know that the requirements to be an independent were so ridiculous.

She can still get up to $7,500 from a Stafford Loan, but I’m guessing that might not be enough.