BJU - Last bastion of family values or whacked-out cult?

Great Debates
1

There’s an article in the weekend edition of USA Today about Bob Jones University. I’m unable to find a corresponding article on their website, so you’ll have to pick yourself up a paper copy if you want to read it. Really what I’m wondering is : who are the types of people who would attend such a university? Are they the same types who would fall victim to a Koresh-like cult?

Consider some of BJU’s rules :
[ul][li]Students must wake up at 6:55 AM and go to sleep at 11 PM.[/li][li]They cannot get within six inches of any member of the opposite sex.[/li][li]No interracial dating. (Though I’m not sure why you’d even want to date in the first place, since even holding your date’s hand would put you within six inches of them.)[/li][li]They cannot shop at grocery stores that sell alcohol. (Didn’t Jesus turn water into wine?)[/li][li]They can’t listen to popular music, not even Amy Grant![/li][li]They can’t even go see a movie![/ul][/li]
Why a person would voluntarily subject themselves to this? These are people that clearly cannot think for themselves or make their own decisions. They’ll just do anything BJU tells them to do. A female student quoted in the article said “We have to follow the Lord’s word, even when it doesn’t always seem to make obvious sense.”

Going to bed at 11 and not listening to music is the Lord’s word? WTF? Sounds like 5,000 kids in need of some therapy to me. What do you guys think?

I am the user formerly known as puffington.

2

I saw Bob Jones last night on Larry King live, he dropped this rule since it was detracting from their message. This made me happy since I am fairly conservative, but involved in an inter-racial relationship.

But your take on dating seems to be exactly the reason Bob Jones has their rule on touching. It seems you can’t imagine dating without physical contact. (neither can I :slight_smile: ) But BJU (fairly ironic name considering their rules) wants the relationship to be non-physical. At the very least this seems to be fairly Biblical.

He compared BJU to a military academy, except for Christians. Very strict rules, and great students.

3

Freedom quoted:He compared BJU to a military academy, except for Christians. Very strict rules, and great students.

Did you notice, was that with or without the guns?

Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley

4

Neutron Star said:

Don’t you know nuthin’? That was nonalcholic wine. I know that’s true 'cus the campus preacher when I was in college said so!

I love the way BJU suddenly got rid of their anti-interracial dating policy. As if that makes everything ok now.

5

I think the McCain-Bush feud over what Dubbya said or didn’t say at BJU is pretty stupid. (Bush, a few days ago, was still telling people he wasn’t anti-Catholic–duh!)

OTOH, I’d love to go head-to-head with BJ (I like those initials, too) comparing my cult to his.

Tom~

6

What would you suggest David? Should they pay reperations to everyone who ever graduated from their school? Should they close up shop and quit? What do you want from these guys?

They have been persecuted by the government for holding to their religous views. They take ZERO federal dollars. They are a private institution.

What do they have to make “OK?” Did they break something?

Are you so critical of Orthodox Jews that prohibit dating outside their race?

What about very conservative Muslims that have strict roles for women and force them to keep their faces covered.

Religion is SUPPOSED to be different. Otherwise, why bother having different religions?

I view this more as the tail end of the southern conservative movement catching up with the rest of us on racial attitudes. The whole friggin south was segregated not to long ago. Nobody down there is trying to claim they are perfect. They were a little slow in taking this off the books, but they have nothing to apoligize to any of us for it.

7

Freedom said:

Closing up shop and quitting would be a good step, yes. But my point was that they should have gotten rid of such idiotic rules long ago – not just when some folks publicly raise a stink about it.

“Persecuted”? Oh please. Quit it with the dramatics.

Good for them. Of course, they wanted federal funding, which is why they had to start letting non-whites in to begin with. The horror!

Yes, the rules of common decency.

Yes. I’ve had arguments about the very subject with my mother (who is no Orthodox and isn’t a racist either, but would not have liked to see her sons date a black girl).

What about them? From now on, when I post about one problem, do I need to list every f*cking problem in the whole world? Is this the best argument you can muster? Whining that I didn’t, in this particular post, talk about everybody else who discriminates?

Ah, so then it’s ok to oppress people if it’s in the name of religion. I see.

I didn’t ask for their apology and have no use for it anyway. I merely pointed out they were wrong to have that situation to begin with. What part of that do you have a problem with?

8

The neutron-degenerate (seriously, that’s a state of matter!) collapsed supernova remnant wrote:

Well, I can understand that. Now, if they forbade their students from listening to Twila Paris, I’d get upset.

9

Very tolerant of you David. They have a different take on life than you, so they should do nothing in life except find out what you think is right and then do that.

I bet you support homosexual rights and wish “homophobes” could just leave them alone. Live and let live right?

Sure…unless it has to do with the religous right.

Ok, maybe persecuted was a little strong. The Branch Davidians are a good example of Christians being persecuted. Bob Jones is just a good example of Christians being discriminated against for their religous beliefs.

You are aware that the government tried to force them to change their religous beliefs by threatening to take away their tax-exempt status right? Bob Jones did not fold and had their status revoked, costing them thousands of dollars every year.

Bob Jones is the only college that has had it’s tax-exempt status revoked.

Hmmm…

Call me crazy, but I think you and them would disagree widely on what decencey is.

Wouldn’t that at least eliminate the “common” part of that sentence? Let’s be honest, what they did was choose an un-pc right wing Christian stance (that I don’t support either). They did not try to force this on anyone, yet you feel justified n calling for the closing down of their college.

What ever happened to tolerance?

Much different situation. I’m talking about beliefs that people believe are religous.

Freedom of Religion means that religions get to set their own standards of right and wrong. Even if this differs from a Straight Dope moderator’s opinion. (the horror!)

Oppress = persecute

Seems to me you are no stranger to dramtics yourself.

BJU is a private school. They were not forcing this on people. If you don’t like their policies, then don’t go there.

I agree. I am a Christian. I am also in an inter-racial relationship with someone I see myself getting married to.

I wasn’t as shocked as most people about the Catholic stuff, after all, the Reformation wasn’t over nothing. The inter-racial stuff killed me because it throws the whole belief system into a bigotted light.

I don’t know if you watched LKL last night, but BJ III did a good job explaining the policy and the reasons for dropping it.

He admitted that it was a relic from the 30’s and that it had no place in the rule book. He stated that the rule had not been enforced or talked about for years. He said the reason he was dropping the rule was because it took away from the message of Christ.

When I started watching the interview I was expecting him to defend it. I was expecting to see another loony Christian dragged out and used to represent all protestants. I was dreading seeing racism used as a Biblical belief.

Two minutes into the interview when he started talking about the policy and explaining the history of it, I told my girlfriend that I could see this guy knew it was wrong. I still didn’t expect him to drop it.

But he did. He did what was right. He sat there and answered every question he was given, and he came out of that interview batting a thousand.

I know atheists like you will never cut this guy any slack. You will never think he (and probably me) is anything other than a nut. But to the moderates and the people on the right out there, he did nothing to hurt himself, and did plenty to help himself.

10

Gosh, David, do you think that maybe Janet Reno should send her thugs to go and burn down the place?

11

Here is a site that would dispute that.

Also, as recently as a week ago the BJU website had an article up defending the rule. It appears to have been taken down when they decided to drop the policy, so unfortunately I can’t prove it.

“Shut up! I’m having a rhetorical conversation!”

12

Well, I really liked this part:

Now as to what this letter actually is. It appears to me that this letter was not sent out to all the students. This letter was a response to a request for an explanation of the racial policies at BJU.

Nobody disputes that the rule existed for the last 70 years, I only said it was not a real part of the life of the school. Just because some activist has them write him a letter expalining the rule does not mean that it was a big part of campus life.
It also needs to be looked at in context. They really don’t allow ANY dating there. I don’t know how they could even know the difference between people who were freinds and those who were dating. There was a 6 inch space requirement between people of opposite sexes.

13

Freedom:

So, are you in favor of, “Live & let live?” Even for homosexuals?

                    quote:

Oh, I’ll say. . .

No. The Branch Davidians are an excellent example of what happens when emotion rules instead of reason. And I would like to see one single example of the faculty, staff or students of Bob Jones being discriminated against for their religious beliefs.

And you are aware, are you not, of the reasons that their tax-exempt status was threatened?

Pity, that. The lesson to be learned is: If you want governmental recognition, then you have to play by the rules established by said government.

Rightly so.

Waste
Flick Lives!

14

Er, if you noticed, I posted that in response to what BJ III said about the rule, not what you said about it. He said the rule hadn’t been “enforced or talked about for years.” If the school was, in fact, as recently as 18 months ago sending out letters to applicants (which the receiver of this letter was) telling them interracial dating was banned on the campus, then BJ III is a liar.

“Shut up! I’m having a rhetorical conversation!”

15

100%

I disagree strongly with their choice of lifestyle. (you and I will probably even diagree on the word choice) However, as long as they do not shove it down my throat or try to make me sanction their decision, then they are free to do as they please.

Anyone who is more scared of homosexuality than ANY “moral” tyranny that forces a correct view on everyone is a moron.

You and I can disagree all day on what is right and wrong, but as long as you live over there, I could care less what you actually do with your own life.

Could you please explain to me the emotion that led to initial raid where the ATF fired upon the Branch Davidians? This was a planned attack on a group of people the government (rightly at the time) felt that no one would care about.

We all stood by and watched these people get butchered and burned to death because we thought they were a little wacky.
When I think of these kids:

http://www.waco93.com/images2/child.jpg

In here:

http://www.waco93.com/images2/tanks.jpg

the word PERSECUTION comes to mind.

I usually find myself defending the 2nd Amendment around here, but I agree that the first is just as important. Here, let me refresh your memory:

This seems to contradict your government rules statement. You see, religions do not need Federal recognition. In fact, if Federal recognition means that religions get treated differently, then Federal recognition is prohibited.

Congress shall make NO LAW…

When you tell a religous institution that they are going to be treated differently if they don’t change their religous belief, you have made all religions subservient to the federal government on the issue of acceptable doctrine.

Taking away their tax-exempt status was discrimination.

16

This is misleading.

They did not send this out to him because he was an applicant, they sent this to him because he called them and asked them to send it to him.

If you can show me that they included a letter like this to every applicant, or student, then I will agree with you. Otherwise it seems to me like this guy (who is an activist) wanted to stir up the issue in an effort to get the rule changed.

In order to motivate people, I would not find it out of the question to consider that the activist had to create the situation himself where this letter was sent out.

17

Freedom, elsewhere on the site there is a letter to the applicant from BJU which states the following:

I don’t know about you, but I’ve never filled out a college application that asked for the race of my spouse. Maybe they didn’t send out these letters to every single applicant, but it sure looks as though they made the information available as they thought necessary in order to prevent race-mixing on their campus.

In any case, I stand by my previous statement, that BJ III’s seems to be a lie.

“Shut up! I’m having a rhetorical conversation!”

18

Freedom:

No disagreement necessary. You have referred to homosexuality as a “choice”. You are wrong.

Oh, christ. I am so tired of “Don’t shove your lifestyle down my throat” used as an excuse for disliking someone, especially gays. Pray tell, in what way is a lifestyle, any lifestyle, shoved down your throat?

You mean the initial raid? Where the feds pulled up to serve a warrant on Smilin’ Dave (in a very stupid fashion, granted) and were fired upon? Or the asinine way that it was handled from that point onward? Actually, I’m referring to the nice folk telling Janet Reno that they had reason to believe that there were children being abused.

And when you, as a religious school, want federal funding, then you must play by the rules established by the federal government. I challenge you to find me a single instance of the government telling BJU, “You just aren’t believing properly, so we’re gonna treat you differently than we do every other religious school and institution in the US. Believe the way we want you to, and all goodness will flow from the federal tap.”

Just to reiterate: Do you know of a single instance wherein the faculty, staff or students of BJU were discriminated against for their religious beliefs?

Waste
Flick Lives!

19

Once again, there is a good chance this guy manufactured the situation.

Is there a copy of the application on his site? I saw that he had scanned in the original copies of the other letter so you could see them.

I think if the application specifically asked about whether or not you were inter-racialy married then we would see the actual application on this guy’s site.

I am going to guess that he wrote it somewhere on the application in an effort to stir up controversy.

(in my head I imagine the application done as usuall with I AM INTER-MARRIED across the top. On the back I imagine a a picture stapeled on with the a picture of a 7 foot tall 400 pound black guy holding a 4 foot tall blonde as can be white midget)

This guy obviously has an agenda. Personally, I agree with it. I’m the last person in the world you are going to see condeming inter-racial marriages. But I think this guy went charging in there with every intention in the world of stirring up trouble.

I don’t like the policy. I am glad it is gone.

I hate defending it AT ALL.

The way he described it was similiar to the “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” policy in the military. The policy sucked. (so does the don’t ask, don’t tell BTW), but it wasn’t an everyday facet of life at the school.

If you wanted to bump into the rule you had to work on it.

Since neither of us is about to drive down to BJU and check it out for ourselves, I think we are going to end up disagreeing on this one. Maybe it is because I think of Bob Jones as a basically good guy. The policy sucked. He looked to me like he was embarrassed about it.

Maybe you have a generally bad impression of him. Maybe you think this is only one symptom out of many that shows what a wacko this guy is.

I can see where you premise of who he is affects whether or not you believe him.

20

Funny how you didn’t address that part of my post.

All of Bob Jones’ policies stemmed from their religous beliefs. It is a RELIGOUS university. Asking them to change a policy, even one about race, is asking them to change their belief.

If BJU had changed it’s policies, it would not have been denied it’s tax-exempt status.

The power to tax is the power to punish.

BJU was and is being punished for it’s policies, which are the implementation of it’s beliefs.

And one more time in case you missed it.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
To steal a 2nd Amendment defense,

What part of NO LAW don’t you understand?