Black English (blacklish), as explained by a black man.

Great Debates
61

FTR, that was a pretty funny analogy!

I disagree, I believe that you became more AWARE of the speech patterns and dress due to blacks increasing role in entertainment.

Again, in the inner city vast swaths of poverty still exist. These same conditions are inspiring the entertainment (Rap) and imitiation you’re picking up. That lower income blacks might adopt this as sort of an identity is not surprising.

As example of this would be similar to the poorer whites in the 50’s adopting a thugish appearance, and slang.

You’re still missing a point. Many lower income blacks still live in poverty conditions that breed the types of behaviors you seem to uncomfortable with. Again, you seem to ignore some of the very points you yourself made. It’s why you see a dichotomy between lower and higher income blacks.

62

Which, of course, is why black speech as an “incomprehensible” dialect was being used as a source of humor in the 1970s and 1980s (e.g., Airplane), right?

As to your contention that your retrogression occurred in the 1990s when blacks were getting “more of what they wanted,” I can only conclude that you really do not pay much attention to national news. After 12 years of Republican control of the White House followed by several years of Republican control of the Congress, there is a very great perception among the poorest of the black population that they have no hope of joining society. They exactly fit the models of the poorest Londoners who were the subject of so much hand-wringing of over their refusal to speak the Queen’s English.

This is not an issue of whether poverty or opportunity are worse or better now than they were twenty years ago. The issue is the perception within the community.

I still challenge your contention that speaking an “impenetrable” black dialect is all that common. At my current client site, over half the building is black and the floor where I work is composed of 60-70% black clerical workers. I do not have any trouble speaking with any of them for any reason. I have also never heard a snatch of conversation, walking past a black group in the lunch room, that I could not understand. (Where they might be more likely to use idioms among their friends.)

I am not suggesting that there are not blacks who have chosen to speak AAVE to the exclusion of Standard English. I am suggesting that your broad characterization that they (most blacks) are doing it is simply taking a few isolated incidents and using them to paint a whole group of society with a broad brush.

Your OP asked

You have chosen to categorize a large blacks into one lump. Where is the evidence that the ones demanding “equality” are the ones trying to stay “separate”? I would suggest that you read the arguments of W.E.B. Du Bois and Booker T. Washington. This debate has engaged the black community for 100 years. On the one side are those who are willing to make some accomodations to black culture to be more readily accepted by the larger white society in America (Washington). On the other side are those who argue that white society in America will never accept blacks, no matter how well-educated or “proper” they are and that blacks are more likely to survive if they organize themselves into their own self-supporting society (Du Bois). (There are many variations of each theme. Those are simply the broader strokes to describe them. And, of course, most blacks, like most everyone, are simply trying to get out of bed in the morning, get their kids to school, handle their jobs, and try to find a life–few people of any color spend much of their waking time trying to put forth an effort to impose any particular philosophy on the world.)

By looking at different actions by different individuals who happen to be black and trying to describe “black” culture in terms of a single set of events, you are setting up false dichotomies over which you can wring your hands, while never fully understanding what is actually happening.

63

I guess it did.

64

I doubt we’ll ever persuade Mark from his opinions, but, perhaps, we are providing food for thought for folks with his leanings who have not seen genuine facts presented, before.

65

Why indeed is anyone suprised by any of Reeboot’s views. You find them generalized and broad sweeping? They lack sensitivity? Or is it that you honestly think these views are not shared by a large segment of the non-black community? There have been other posters on this board that have hinted at similar ideas.

What I cannot understand about other whites who feel this way is why? I maintain that whites or any other group that insist in finding some fault, blame or threat in any other group are simply afraid. What of, I can’t be sure. Afraid that they will one day be accepted as equal to you and therefore the whole world will know that you aren’t shit!? You are just as stupid, culturally, morally and ethically bankrupt as the group you’ve loved to hate for so long? Afraid that you will somehow lose the upperhand culturally, socially and economically. If that’s the case then just say so. At least white supremicists have the guts to say so. They at least have the guts to say they are afraid that their race will die out. But veiled attempts to cover fear and predjudice under the guise of “they are only hurting themselves”. Is just the rantings of terrified cowards. If you’re gonna be a racist go ahead a be one, don’t be lukewarm about it. Stand up for what you believe in even if it is motivated by fear. Fear is a pretty damned good motivator if you ask me.

Needs2know

66

Having reviewed the thread, I have to admit that I can’t point to a response that says, “You’re a racist.” Sorry I overstated. But the tone seemed accusatory to me. To quote another poster, maybe that’s not the case, but the subtext is there.

I only mean that it shouldn’t supplant normal English. I agree that it ain’t gonna happen.

Oh Collounsbury, enh. I’ll take your word on it. For the record, how many Georgia schools have asked that their children be taught in cracker-speak?

Sure - I’m willing to bet your dad speaks that way because he wants to distinguish himself from the riff-raff, right? AAVE-speakers use AAVE for a similar reason, don’t they? Except it winds up working against many of them, I imagine.

This is purely subjective, but it seems like a dialect, then, composed largely of mispronounced words and grammar mangling. I dunno. Still sounds bad to these ears.

Yeah, well, we’re talking about a whole new paradigm here. I’m glad we could dialogue. - I see what you’re saying here, and it’s disagreeable to me because it’s perpetuated by idiots trying to impress everyone with their smartitude.

I don’t have a quarrel with, say, new words. They pop up, they go away, whatever. If not for that we wouldn’t have such gems as 23-skidoo and swank. I do have problems with poor subject-verb agreement and such things.

I’m hardly obsessing. I’m not hyper-proper in either my speech or my writing, but I do make an effort to sound coherent. I would hope that others would do the same.

I’m not going to speculate as to his motives, particularly since it’s water under the bridge now.

67

It’s not grammar mangling. African-American Vernacular English (it was called Black English Vernacular or BEV in my Philosophy of Language class) follows perfectly sound grammatical rules, they are simply not the same grammatical rules used in Standard American English (SAE).

In “The Language Instinct” Pinker says, “The most linguistically interesting thing about the dialect is how linguistically uninteresting it is: if Labov [who studied BEV] did not have to call attention to it to debunk the claim that ghetto children lack true linguistic competence, it would have been filed away as just another language.”

It may sound bad to your ears, but that’s a reflection of your own personal prejudices and not the validity of the dialect.

68

I hasten to chime in that I believe Lamia meant “personal prejudices in favor of the sound of the standard English that you’re accustomed to thinking of as ‘correct’” rather than “personal prejudices against black people that include disliking the sound of their vernacular dialect.” I agree that people who are trying to write or speak standard American English should get their subject-verb agreement right (as well as a host of other fine grammar points that I’m hyperobsessive about, such as not using “whom” for “who” or “like” for “as”). But if people are speaking a dialect of English that has different grammar rules that conflict with the ones we’re used to, it’s pointless to criticize it from the perspective of standard English. Lie back and enjoy it, says I.

Gundy: Yeah, well, we’re talking about a whole new paradigm here. I’m glad we could dialogue.

:slight_smile: Hee. You are pretty funny, Gundy, and I hope you stick around. (Can’t say I’m going to miss Reboot42, though.)

69

FTR, Gundy, your information on the Ebonics debate is inaccurate. What the systm was trying to accomplish was getting Teachers to recognize that many children in inner cities communicated thusly, and was an outreach effort to get teachers to learn how to effectively communicate with those children on their level.

I haven’t been able to finfd the original copy of it, but here’s a little form site I’ve dug up

This was from this site

70

See, I understand that it has its own rules. But - and please do correct me if I’m wrong - do those rules not have their foundation in incorrect applications of standard American English rules?

This is about opinion, is it not? Hence my comment. MY ears, not yours. So, I freely admit that I harbor prejudices against people who don’t know when to use the right dialect at the right time. I don’t presume to think that anyone would take my word as validating a dialect, for criminy’s sake.

71

No it doesn’t try this article

72

OK, I’m back after a weekend hiatus.

stuffinb - I assume the thing you said you haven’t heard of happening, is a black person who cries racism when not hired after speaking in “blacklish” in the interview. I have seen this happen personally.

As the senior bartender who happened to be around, I sat in on an interview for a bartending job. I had hopes that we would hire this guy partially BECAUSE he was black. The job included a lot of catering and maybe 50% of the big jobs were black weddings and other mostly black events. We didn’t currently have a black bartender (there were 9 total bartenders all white males) and I thought it might be good PR policy to have one. The application the inerviewee submitted included some good experience and the only problem with it was that he hadn’t held any one job for more than a year. As this is fairly typical of bartenders, we had hopes that he would be a good choice. He arrived with his pants halfway down his butt and talking in extreme dialect. The secretary almost threw him out because she couldn’t understand him enough to figure out that he had an appointment. My boss never said the things that I suggest in my post asking for an exhibition of standard english, but as often as she had to ask the guy to repeat himself you’d think he would have gotten the idea that she didn’t like the way he was talking and couldn’t understand it very well. She ended up giving him the standard “we’ll call you if we need you” line. A week later we were being sued for racist hiring policies. I think the company won the case but had to pay a lawyer.

I say that this is a clear example of a guy putting a lot of effort into separating himself from mainstream culture and complaining that the mainstream culture doesn’t treat him equally. I submit that as much as he complains about it, he doesn’t really want to be accepted by the dominant culture. What I think he wants is to be rejected and then to take advantage of our laws to get some free money. I do not think that this extreme case is typical. I do think that similar cases happen ocassionally, maybe often. It is pretty hard to find any kind of statistics on this, supporting or refuting. I can only offer that I have heard hearsay stories of many similar events. Every time something like this happens it hurts the future of every black person in America because more people are going to be less sympathetic to black problems. It makes people think that blacks are not willing to cooperate.

Now, stuffinb, if what you were saying you never heard of was the interviewer asking for a demonstration of standard english, then I must admit to never hearing of that either, but wouldn’t it be a good idea? It was an aside and not directly answering the OP.

73

Thanks, stuffinb. I read the article, but I didn’t read anything supporting the assertion that they do not have their foundation in American English rules - he just said they didn’t, repeatedly. Have I missed something?

74

Gundy: *See, I understand that it [AAVE] has its own rules. But - and please do correct me if I’m wrong - do those rules not have their foundation in incorrect applications of standard American English rules? *

You’re wrong. Linguistics researchers now seem to think that AAVE is creole in origin, that is, it is descended from attempts to combine the grammar and vocabulary elements of two or more mutually incomprehensible mature languages into a common means of communication. This is not the same thing as trying to follow standard American English rules and inadvertently screwing it up.

If you want to see a real discussion of hypotheses for the origin of AAVE, I recommend an on-line article called The Creole Origins of AAVE: Evidence from Copula Absence. If a few hundred sentences such as

don’t kill you outright, :slight_smile: they should end up convincing you that AAVE is a genuine historical dialect that is much more linguistically complex than can be explained by mere “mangled pronunciation and faulty grammar” in attempts to use standard American English.

And VileOrb, I sympathize with the company in the incident you described which does indeed sound like an attempt by a con artist to scam either your employer or the courts or both; I’m glad it didn’t succeed. But I must point out that though this individual doesn’t seem to be much of a credit to his race (or to the subset of people with their pants half off their asses or any other demographic category he may happen to belong to), people should not allow their opinions of blacks as a whole to be diminished because of him: that’s bigotry.

Consider this: if a white guy had come in with a similarly uncooperative attitude and barely comprehensible speech, you probably wouldn’t have hired him either, but would it have crossed your mind to complain that his behavior reflected poorly on white people as a group? It’s not right to evaluate whites (or Christians, or men, or people over thirty, or whoever) strictly as individuals while allowing yourself to criticize other groups on the basis of some individuals’ behavior.

75

Good god. Remind me to never ask for a reference from regarding this subject again. That was, uh, exhaustive. I’m a complete tyro when it comes to linguistics, so this has been interesting. Thanks for the correction.

Anyhoo - I think that what Reboot was trying to say somewhere in there is that using AAVE and promoting its use via teaching in schools, etc., is undermining attempts by black youth to ‘get ahead’ in American mainstream (read: mostly white) culture. While I stand corrected about my initial assumptions about its origins, I still think he was right in that assertion. Again, I still think there’s a time and place for that form of speech, and for standard American English - and that it’s a mark of common sense (if not intelligence outright) to know when to use one or the other.

76

Sorry bout that Gundy try this one, I used to have this at my finger tips, I can’t find most of it now, but that should be a good start.

77

Thank you, Kimstu. After I left my room I was worried that I hadn’t made myself clear, but I was in a hurry to finish the post before going to class.

I agree. I have always liked hearing different dialects and accents. Keeps things interesting.

No, that is not the case. The grammatical rules of AAVE or BEV are not simply ignorant corruptions of SAE rules. If I may refer to Pinker again (his is the only language book I have at hand), there are some auxiliaries that are usually contracted in SAE but are usually used in their full forms in BEV. BEV is also sometimes more precise than SAE. I think it is clear that BEV is not just a poor man’s SAE.

I was going to mention creole languages at this point, but I see in my other browser window that Kimstu has done that already so I won’t go over it again.

I do not believe that this thread is about whether or not you personally care for the sound of a certain dialect. If it is, then it should be moved to IMHO.

78

Dandy, ain’t it?

I don’t disagree at all. While I think stuff noted some of the initial impetus of the Ebonics flap came from the idea of using 2nd language techniques with presumably black english speakers(frankly Ebonics is just a horrible name), some of it clearly was rooted in the idea of setting up black english as a competing standard. Some black nationalists. Minority I am sure, but… Frankly what should have been a technical issue got hijacked from all sides, or such is my impression.

79

Kimstu -
I do my best to not let the actions of a few individuals cause me to make judgements about the races or whatever. However, I am not entirely successful. I find myself having less trust of a random black guy dressed in FUBU than I do of a white guy in jeans and a tshirt. Intellectually, I know I should be equally trustful, and cautious, of both. Emotionally, I am much more on the defensive with blacks. Up until the age of about 18, I had limited contact with blacks other than college classmates. I had not developed this emotional bias. But, after living for 14 years in downtown Baltimore, I have had enough bad experiences with blacks that I find myself feeling animosity toward blacks regardless of my intellectual knowledge that it’s only a certain subset of blacks that I need to worry about. I haven’t developed a good way to differentiate the blacks I need to worry about, without first putting myself in jeopardy. Part of this, I think, is that the more positive blacks make it a point to emulate the fashion and dialect of the losers.

I have had bad experiences with whites too, but the overwhelming majority of experiences I have had with whites have been positive or neutral. Unfortunately, blacks were running about 50/50 until I became more cautious. Now the bad experiences are more frequent but also more minor. Because, over all, there is less negative impact on me with my current attitude, I have little motivation to attempt to switch back. There is only that little nagging feeling that I shouldn’t discriminate. I don’t have many opportunities to discriminate except in very minor personal dealings, and so my ethics meter hasn’t been in the red, only the yellow.

I hate to go with the “I have black friends” thing, but I think that this is relevant here. One of my three best friends is black. His daughter is my god daughter. He has drug convictions and other problems. I think he has learned that this kind of conduct is a bad idea and I trust him completely. He thinks that I should be LESS trusting of blacks.

I do feel somewhat bad that my emotions are not entirely politically correct. I think that I am better than many. If I had the chance, I would never have discriminatory hiring practices or anything like that.

My point is that, every time a person does something, it has an effect on all the people who witness it. We all have first impressions of people we meet, no matter how hard we try not to. These first impressions are largely based on experiences we’ve had with people in the past who remind us in some way of the current individual under scrutiny. It’s like in a work environmet when one bad salesperson, or whatever, makes customers assume that the whole company is bad. You are constantly representing your race, your family, your sex, and every category that someone might group you into. Say you give a store several chances but about half the time the sales people are unhelpful, rude, or incompetant - how do you feel about the store? Not a perfect correlation here between races and businesses, but I think you get my point about the unavoidability of preconceptions.

One more thing, yes, it does cross my mind that a white individual is reflecting poorly on the race. I have on several occasions told white people specifically that I didn’t like the way they were acting because it reflected poorly on me. If the only witnesses to the incident were white guys then I would merely tell the guy he was a jerk, but, if there were others, I would make a point of saying that I didn’t approve of the guy’s actions in order to mitigate the harm done to my race and gender. The most blatant example of this happened when I was taking a class on racism in literature, one white male made several racist comments. I kept hoping for the white female professor to step in a bit but she didn’t so I spoke up and said directly to the blacks in the class that I thought the guy was uniformed and racist but that I hoped he could learn different in this class. Several other white individuals in the class then spoke up similarly. The guy didn’t learn. I pointed out to the blacks that this individual was atypical and only one individual among many. I asked that we not be judged by his behavior. As many of the dicussions in class became debates that were largely blacks against whites (except one ethiopian fellow who always sided with the whites), I used to cringe everytime the racist jerk would raise his hand.

80

One more effort to make my points clearly apply to the OP:

Although I do criticize those blacks who are scam artists etc., the blacks who I am being more critical of in relation to this subject are the educated blacks who do not say anything to their less educated, or less ethical, brethren. I also criticise them for emulating the styles of the less ethical in the name of unity.