My apologies, VileOrb, I didn’t mean to imply that you personally were being bigoted or that I suspected you of it. I was just saying that any kind of stereotyping about people in a different group is intrinsically wrong, which is something we tend to overlook when we see how bad behavior in individuals can encourage stereotyping. Yes, with the world in its current state, blacks (at least in this country) will inevitably suffer more than whites from the bad impressions created by other members of their race. I just don’t want to put all the onus on the people creating the bad impressions (though they certainly deserve some blame) and none on the people generalizing the bad impressions to entire groups.
I understood the intent of your comment, Lamia, and that’s what my response took into account. I admitted to that very prejudice. I would think many people have the same one. Would you hire the hypothetical receptionist who uses AAVE to answer the company line?
Obviously I don’t. Anyone who doesn’t speak the way I do at all times is an idiot.
I think it is about opinion. Not mine specifically, as I believe I mentioned, but that of the general public. Far be it from me to speak for America, but it seems that there is some support for the idea that people have encountered difficulty because of the use of AAVE at inappropriate times.
Kimstu -
I would just reiterate this: I agree that many share the blame on the problem of racism (and prejudice in general). It is my belief that those who fail to to take actions, like those I took in my story about my racism in literature class, are frequently not held accountable for failing to take action - inaction being less offensive than action in many people’s minds. I think that, if I criticize a black scam artist as a human being, all that does is make me look racist, but, if a black person criticizes, the scam artist is more likely to take the criticism constructively and it reflects positively on the black community in general. I think their are ample opportunities for ethical blacks to take this kind of action but I have only seen it happen in a very general, round-about way in movie themes and the reviews of those movies. I would like to somehow increase awareness in these ethical individuals and encourage them to fulfill their ethical responsibilities in this regard.
Speaking up is not easy to do. I had to work up quite a bit of courage to speak up in as public a place as a classroom, but the more public the venue the better. Also, some of the blacks took my comments as an effort to keep the racism underground rather than an effort to eliminate it. They actually gave the jerk credit for being honest and accused me of duplicity. Only, years later when some of my black classmates had known me long enough to see consistancy in my life did they come to believe that I was honestly fighting against racism. I still believe that this difficult task is my ethical obligation and that, if I were to fail in it, I would deserve severe criticism.
BTW, I have focused mainly on males in my discussions because the way English makes this more convenient than the awkward “he or she” construction or whatever. I’ll admit to being a bit of a sexist in the same way that I admit to being a bit of a racist. It’s only a subtle emotional response that I balance with an intellectual effort to remain unbiased. I apoligize to any that this offends. I am constantly striving to do better.
A very valid point.
Probably true.
I think part of the problem is that even those folks who are comfortable with white culture don’t feel fully accepted by a large number of white folks. I think we know why (too many Reboots out there speaking doubletalk). So there is a sense of circling the wagons. That’s my read of the situation. I myself make an extra effort to (1) make sure racist actions, statements etc. are not accepted in my work place (2) encourage af.am. colleugues to join in fully with the teams (e.g. socializing). Little damn saint, eh? not really, we work long hours and I can’t afford lost efficiency. And of course I despise racism…
Yeah, there’s a long history to fight against.
I like how you work and frankly your honesty on the matter. It takes a great deal of personal honesty to approach the subject like this and kudos to you for risking it.
A point of contention
While I understand your reasoning VileOrb as too speaking out when blacks tend to be engaging in behaviors that’s wrong. I submit that most blacks would feel just as uncomfortable approaching people engaged in that behavior as you yourself are.
Someone’s bar story spring to mind there.
Kudos to you too Col, it’s good to hear the support now and then. Sometimes I feel like I’m fighting the battle all alone. Not that it makes it less worthy, just more frustrating.
I’ve seen MPSIMS threads asking everyone to disclose whether they are male or female but never one asking to disclose race. The only personal contact I’ve had with any Doper other than JustAnotherGuy (who is an old personal friend of mine, aaahh did i just admit that?!), was the recent ChiDopeFest. All attendees were white I think, mnaybe some Southeast Asian or Native American mixed race in there. I could be wrong. I didn’t ask or really care. My point is, American is something like 12% black last I heard, but I suspect that black posters on this board are more rare, maybe 5% at the most. I suspect this is at least partially due to blacks, on the average, being less wealthy and therefore having less access to education and to the internet. It is too bad, I would like to hear a greater minority voice here.
Are there any posters out there, who have not specified their race who give the impression of being a member of a minority race? I can’t think of any in particular. I have seen a very few posters specify that they are black or Southeast Asian (I still have a problem with plain ‘Asian’ as my most recent ex-girlfriend was Russian and who thought that calling orientals ‘asians’ was like calling hispanics ‘europeans’). There are certainly many Jews on the boards and I have learned much of their culture and beliefs here. I would not be completely astounded to hear that I am wrong about this. Actually, I would be pleased, very pleased. Kimstu? You black? Tris? Poly? Anyone? Native American? At least we have stuffinb, thanks for specifying and for your input stuff, now if we just knew for sure you weren’t putting us on. 
Of course, I could go look at pictures of many posters in various places but, it’s been kind of nice to have no way to develop any preconceptions. My opinions of most posters are based entirely on their written words.
Just caught stuffinb’s point of contention on a review: I agree that blacks would feel uncomfortable speaking out against the unethical members of their race. It would probably be harder for them than it is for me. I still say that it is their, that’s you stuff, ethical duty. Anything less is unethical, unless you believe that continued predjudice is a desirable goal. Your silence encourages further racial sabotage.
Im not putting you on, I’ve been meaning to put up a pic somewhere…
BTW, it comes up on the telephone too, you should see how hysterical it is when people find out Im black for the first time 
I know the feeling. I know I’ve gone over the top on some discussions on race on this board from the frustration. But rather you deserve the kudos for a good deal of personal honesty.
Race is the great unspoken in American society. I’ll come clean and say it took me a long time to deal honestly with the issue. I’d bet if I recorded myself circa 1983 or so, I’d sound a lot more like Reboot than I’d care to admit.(Assuming that my read of him is correct) And even after that I was working through a lot of the hangover as I like to say, from growing up with racism. But since then Ive expanded my horizons. Hell, my most recent SO is an African woman. A bit discomforting when I think back to some of my dumb ass beliefs a good 15 years back, but hell, none of us are perfect.
Yes, and also I’d suspect that most blacks who have some degree of economic achievement are new to wealth and thus to these kind of liesures. I mean this kind of discussion is perfectly normal to me because of my background (but weird as hell I’d wager for my mom’s family).
Eh, but what’s oreintal? We don’t have a good vocabulary for this. My experience has been Asian-Americans (2nd generation) prefer Asian, others don’t give a damn cause their sense of the language isn’t there or whatnot. Either way, so long as one’s not investing stereotypes no harm done.
For better or worse!
Come on now Coll, you know what an oriental is as well as you know what a hispanic is. They’re the words we’ve been using as neutral references to races for quite some time now. Those who used to be called oriental don’t like it anymore. OK, fine. I’m OK with that, but by choosing the word ‘asian’ they’re making the non-oriental people in asia seem insignificant. Thus, both words are now racist. There is no non-racist word. I use Southeast Asian, it’s clunky but it’s the best I can do. I am glad that most blacks have come to accept the word black as non-offensive. It’s so nice and short. Is there a latin word for the SE asian race?
There are a differences between race and nationality and place of birth. There should be a non-offensive way to describe them.
Sorry for the hijack.
I have lived and worked among blacks most of my life. I have come in contact with urban and rural blacks. It has been my experience that blacks often have a sort of “sixth sense” when it comes to bigotry. No matter how polite and falsely neutral a white may portray themselves most blacks can detect insencerity in a white’s behavior. It’s almost like they instinctively know that at home you have been referring to them as “niggers”. They are just as keen on signals as anyone. Black men can see the fear and reservation in your eyes when they encounter you on the street. They notice how white women tighten the grip on their purse. They can read the signs and body language. It angers them and it should.
In my personal experience I have never known a truely non-bigoted white to have the first bit of racially motivated trouble with a black. I even argue with my co-workers on occasion but they would never behave or even hint that our differences might be motivated by race. They know better. The only people I have ever observed who had trouble with blacks in the neighborhood or at the work place were obviously trying to hide their predjudice. Black people do not display attitude toward people that do not deserve to get it, at least by my observations.
Needs2know
Unless one thinks that black people have some mysterious power of intituion lacking from the rest of the human race, we can assume that they are as much subject to misperception as anyone. Of course there are subtle signs, but I have encountered black folks whose distaste for whites is so strong that it colors their every interaction.
In short, neither side has a monopoly on misperception, although of course its clear one side has much more power.
K2K - I have seen predator blacks intentionally seek out non-prejudiced people because they know they are an easy mark. Does that count? You obviously deal with blacks who are not like this, but believe me. They are out there.
VileOrb: Come on now Coll, you know what an oriental is as well as you know what a hispanic is. They’re the words we’ve been using as neutral references to races for quite some time now. Those who used to be called oriental don’t like it anymore. OK, fine. I’m OK with that, but by choosing the word ‘asian’ they’re making the non-oriental people in asia seem insignificant.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Sorry to continue the hijack, but I feel the need to stamp on the small cockroach of ignorance that is showing its antennae here. “Oriental” is not historically a racially or geographically unambiguous term: you may be used to applying it exclusively to East Asians and Southeast Asians, but it’s also been used for natives of India, the Middle East, and yes, even Russia (by Rudyard Kipling, no less!). In short, it has been used for more or less anybody who came from someplace east (and not very far south) of Europe. (To this day, the American Oriental Society publishes scholarly work on the language, literature, and history of cultures in the Middle East, India, Central Asia, Japan, China, Southeast Asia, almost all the places ever lumped together under the general rubric of “the Orient”—not Russia, though.)
So you can easily see how people from these regions would tend to get tired of the word “Oriental” basically used to mean “somebody from somewhere out east,” with the potential implication of “some place I can’t be bothered to identify more precisely because all those dirty wogs are the same anyway.” It’s the East and Southeast Asians who seem to have pushed hardest to replace “Oriental” with the more geographically accurate “Asian”, so some people nowadays confuse the part with the whole and think that “Asian” specifically means “East or Southeast Asian”, as you seem to have done.
You are correct that this is misleading in that it overlooks the billions of Asians who are not Chinese/Japanese/Vietnamese/Cambodian/etc., but there is no need to bring back the word “Oriental” in order to clear up the misunderstanding. Just use the accurate regional terms: East Asian for Chinese/Japanese, Southeast Asian for Vietnamese/Cambodian/etc., South Asian for Indian/Pakistani/Nepali etc., West Asian for Saudi/Iraqi/Iranian/etc. Then people from the appropriate parts of the former Soviet Union can be correctly identified as Central Asian or North Asian, and nobody needs to be left out.
VileOrb: I use Southeast Asian, it’s clunky but it’s the best I can do.
“Clunky”? Pooh. If you don’t mind using four whole syllables to say “European” or “American” or “Canadian”, you can use four syllables to say “Southeast Asian” or “Central Asian.” If somebody tells you that it’s racist to refer to them by any ethnic designation other than “pastoral nomad from the Central Asian plateau,” then you can come whining to me about “clunky.”