No, I’m saying that competitive forces were different when Macy’s was able to stay closed on a holiday. Online shopping has raised the bar and upped the ante significantly. If Macy’s wants to hold its position as a market leader, it has to not only maintain an online store, but it has to also keep its doors open. Especially if mall owners demand it.
I could be wrong about this since I don’t work at Macy’s. But I imagine Macy’s executives would say something like this. You pointing to a time when Macy’s wasn’t open on Thanksgiving is like me pointing to a time when Krispy Kremes didn’t care so much about marketing its coffee as evidence that coffee is a overhyped product. As the competition changes, so must business practices, or else you risk losing market share. And it’s undeniable that Macy’s competition has changed a lot over the years. As has a bunch of other stuff. People harkening back to the good ole days seem to be forgetting this.
That doesn’t support the idea that having a “healthy economy” requires stores to be open on Thanksgiving day though. My point what that your question (if it’s possible to have “both a healthy economy and one where everyone is frugal and anti-consumerist”) had a wide excluded middle. You can have a consumerist economy without it running full tilt 365 days a year. You have people widely displaying restraint one day without throwing the train completely off the rails.
Meh. They’d still have to live somewhere and if more and more of them want to rent then the cost of renting will go up which will increase the value of houses.
Right. But my point (which I’ve addressed since that post) is that the economy was different back in the idyllic days when most retail operations stayed closed on major holidays. When the economy is based on agriculture (as it was back in the early days of Thanksigiving) or unionized manufacturing (as it was back when we or our parents were growing up), Thanksgiving can be that Norman Rockwell fantasy for most families. When the economy is driven by retail though, Thanksgiving is a retail/commercialization affair. I guess I don’t know why people are confused why the nature of the economy is naturally going to affect family dynamics. We just need to roll with it like we’ve rolled with everything else.
All I’m saying is that I understand why retailers are doing this and why I think it’s unfair to bemoan one aspect of it (brick-and-mortar stores being open) but not all of it (online shopping). One behavior is directly resulting from the other.
I hear people proposing boycotts and the like. But does that really fix the problem of labor exploitation and over-rampant consumerism? Does boycotting Macy’s or Best Buy strengthen the economy and create more jobs? Boycotting businesses that choose to stay open on Thanksgiving does nothing to encourage more family-friendly employment practices. It just gives a “good” business cover to screw their employees over all the other 364 days of the year, when no one is paying attention.
I own many things. I also buy many things. We are all, of necessity, consumers.
Much of what I support and advocate is quite extreme - but none of it is hippy-dippy pseudo-socialist “shared poverty” or legislated “equality,” economic or otherwise. I believe in capitalism, personal wealth and a free market - but I no more believe in those things as unlimited and unbridled positives than I do in the idea that modern consumers have anything like what they believe of individual choice and economic self-determination.
This is too complex a topic for a tiny row of pigeonholes.
I don’t see what the big deal is. People seem to like it. I am not one of them so I stay home. Some people are shopping, some people are working. Some people will always have to work on a holiday, depending on their vocation. I have worked so many holidays in my life it doesn’t even seem like a big deal. It’s just something some people have to do, whether they’re doctors, fast food workers, or retail cashiers. It doesn’t seem to be changing so it might be time to just roll with the changes instead of holding on to traditions.
Yes, it’s possible to trudge through the economic beliefs and assertions, and say “that was then, this is now” and put some burden on those who “choose” to shop and not on the sellers, but it’s also easy to get lost in traditional economic indoctrination and fall for assumptions or assertions that aren’t quite as concrete as Harvard Biz might like you to think.
Economics is a self-referential and largely tautological “science” that determines its own goals and then shapes all of its structures to support them. Soberly considering why retailers do things in traditional economic terms is to fall for the trap that those terms represent some kind of verity - like gravity or inertia or a rotating Earth - when in fact they deliberately overlook as much as they include.
Just maybe there’s more to the equation than the profits of the retailers and an entire superheated economy based on their maximized sales.
But not the value of every house, everywhere. A lot of people own properties in areas that may not be attractive to childfree or small-family urbanistic Hipsters who’d rather take public transit or walk to work than have a long commute.
A lot of people’s retirement–including my own–depend on other people being good little consumers from now to eternity.
So while I support a frugal lifestyle, I admit I’m uncomfortable with espousing it too much. For one thing, I know it is a sign of privilege to be able to eschew materialism and be all vocal and preachy about it. A life of “simplicity” is awesome when you can afford to partake in experiential pleasures, like scuba diving in the Caribbean, rather the cheap material ones that you can buy at Walmart. I can pay lipservice to frugality easily because I’ve never really had to suffer the indignity of poverty and not having having “enough”. My ego isn’t tied to things because no one has ever made me feel crappy for not having “things”. But another reason I can’t talk too loudly about it is because I directly benefit from people’s overspending and overconsumption. I may think commercialization bothers me, but really it doesn’t.
I really can’t tell you how much I admire this paragraph. There may be any number of folks here who can and have thought about this topic with some attempt at order and clarity, but such thoughts aren’t often expressed. Kudos.
I will only say in return, and following on my above comments, that you might be rolling too much into too small a ball. It’s not a simple sliding scale from “overconsumption” to “frugality.” It’s not even about feeling good or bad about how much or how little “stuff” you have. And yes, the most visible part of the “frugal” spectrum seems to be extremely wealthy “minimalists” who have come to love their one small Park Avenue apartment, five Brioni suits and just the one Patek Phillippe.
There is a much more realistic area of that spectrum that neither has to tolerate commercialism (on social or economic grounds) nor pretend (or live) some self-imposed poverty/frugality/minimalism. But it all begins by questioning the fundamentals of economics that say only when an economy is churning at maximum speed is it desirable or “healthy.”
In a sentence, don’t oversimplify the situation, and don’t accept too many system-serving assumptions.
To be honest, I don’t know exactly why you’re rallying against. You say this isn’t about businesses staying open on Black Friday, but look at the title. You say you don’t have a problem with stores being open on Thanksgiving, and yet you complain about what it means for the timing of your dinner. You say this isn’t about your daughter, and yet you mentioned your daughter.
So I’m the one who’s wondering what exact your complaint is and what you propose as a solution. Do you want for us to go back to some time that never existed when people refrained from working on Thanksgiving? If so, why? How are families who depend on retail work for survival benefited by a missed day of wages? Is their concern for survival another materialistic notion, or is it an important reality that deserves attention?
I’m not indoctrinated. I just refuse to get carried away by the fear of change. I just don’t put a lot of stock in “tradition”. Work and money have always been more important than high-minded notions of family and “togetherness”. And every time those notions have been modified, whether by economic forces or cultural movements, someone has cried about the breakdown of society. But we’ve somehow managed to keep it together and deal. My family stopped have traditional Thanksgiving dinner years ago, but we are still close and stable and high-functioning. Your “tradition” will also change as your children age and have families of their own. But you too will also manage through it.
I don’t think our economy is superheated because of Black Friday sales, though. I think that’s what’s sticking in my craw about this entire discussion. Black Friday is just an easy punching bag. Just like evil Walmart is a more hateable villain than our friendly neighborhood banking institutions. If our economy explodes again, it won’t be because Aunt Susie bought one too many irregular undergarmets at Walmart on Thanksgiving Day. And it won’t be because Walmart didn’t worship the holiday to the same degree it did twenty years ago. I’m all about rallying against the evil corporate capitalist structure (I’ve done this before plenty of times on the board). I don’t like to get hung up on cosmetic “feel good” stuff. And that’s what this feels like to me.
Amateur Barbarian loves to rail against the evils of “marketing,” but I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a clear sense about exactly what he’s railing against. Sometimes, like in this thread, it feels like he hates that people choose to buy anything at all. Do you want communes and bread lines? I honestly don’t get it.
And Amateur Barbarian, when you reply, please imply that I’m stupid or naive again. I always love that.
You’re the only one saying that. You’re trying to make abnormal something that had been normal for thousands of years. It seems like a losing battle.
Right. Why chose Thanksgiving to make a fuss over? Rather than say, Labor Day? A day when a case could be made that workers do deserve a rest, and a little appreciation paid? There’s a long history of the US ignoring Labor Day while the rest of the world takes it seriously, due to our anti-worker culture. That is a soapbox to stand on.
Here’s a list of current world conflicts. Which are caused by consumerism. Wait, it’s almost none? Crazy.
We’ve already established you don’t support workers. Do you not support world peace, either?
Exactly.
The majority of us will be spending Thanksgiving and Black Friday how we want to spend it. You may be put out because you’re prevented from doing that, because your daughter does not have the labor leverage for that middle class reward yet. And that’s too bad. But it’s not a world crisis.
But hajario’s right. People have to live somewhere. If being an urban hipster becomes too expensive, those people will have to start moving further out to the burbs. But I really don’t think suburban living will ever become that unpopular that no one will want to do it. Just as not everyone likes the burbs, not everyone likes the city.
Are ya’ll saying that no one ever loses in the game of real estate?
Because sure, you can always rent a house you can’t unload. But if no one wants to live in your area (it could be a city like Detroit where there just aren’t any jobs left), then who are you going to rent it to?
I’ve got a couple of properties on my block that have had “FOR RENT” signs in their yards for the past year. And I live in a fashionable area of town. Meanwhile, there’s a new condo complex being built just up the street. Who wants a 1920s bungalow when they can move into a brand-new home starting in the $130s?
I’m saying that a few people have always lost, but that we’re not heading towards some epidemic of people refusing to live in houses. People will always want houses, they just might not want your house. Hopefully, those people who have a hard time selling will be able to figure something out, but this is nothing new.
I’ve WORKED Thanksgiving, and I know what you’re talking about. However, this was a small grocery store that was only open until two on that day and it was all volunteer. That’s one thing. But most of these people aren’t out to get a can of Redi Whip or napkins. They’re there to get a TV that’ll probably be even cheaper next week. The world is not going to fall apart if a retail store is closed for one fucking day.
I mean, a few years ago an employee at Walmart was trampled to death at a Black Friday sale. Jesus.
Also, it’s not Target or Macys doesn’t have a website. The whole “competing with Amazon” may be a factor, but they aren’t only a brick and mortar store. Perhaps they can offer a special discount to Thanksgiving sales online?
(And yeah, Labor Day is a joke)
Note: this isn’t anti-capitalist, anti-consumerism rant. (Hell, I love to shop!) I do, however, have a problem with the type of companies that make money by exploiting their employees. And you can’t tell me they don’t do it. coughwalmartcough There’s got to be a middle ground somewhere.
Shoppingwise, I vote with my feet. (I hate shopping AND crowds) Holidaywise, it’s nice to actually be able to do a holiday on its designated day, but in my youth I worked many shifts, especially TG, Christmas/Eve, so that my coworkers with little kids could be with their families. It was called TG or Christmas whenever the family could convene.
It’s even better now- we get doubles on a lot of them, due to differing belief systems, and I now get the official days off.
When I lived in cities, I would walk around the screamers on the street corners.
My “middle ground” would be to focus on livable wages and predictable scheduling for retail workers. These are things that benefit families the most. Not sentimental holidays. Listening to the folks who do minimum wage jobs on reddit and such places, the biggest complaint seems to be how they never get enough hours to support themselves. Especially the ones who are having to pay rent and utilities (folks still living with parents probably have less reason to worry about stuff like this). Maybe if those folks were the main ones protesting Black Friday, I would feel differently about this whole thing. But it seems to me their voices are always drowned out by the folks who can afford to be sentimental.
And Wegman’s is going to be open till 5:00. I’m sure a lot of ill-prepared Thanksgiving chefs will be taking grateful advantage of this, as well as the schmoes who don’t have Thanksgiving dinners to go to because they have to work on that day. Just like they’ve always had to.