My understanding (probably wrong) was that the old stock of the Celts (early in the first millenium C.E.) was predominantly melanochroi–somewhat light-skinned and quite dark-haired. Also typically curly-haired, unlike the commonly straight-haired Nordics.
Auburn-haired and blond Celts would have arisen from intermarriage (well, interbreeding generally–some of it extramarital) with the Germanic/Nordic peoples also in Europe.
If I Recall Correctly, Walloons, Bretons, and Spanish Galicians all claim descent from an old European Celtic race–or set of races, including Gauls, Gaels, Welsh, Brythonic Celts, and possibly the ancient Galatians of Anatolia–well, maybe not the Galatians, but Galatia, Gaul, Galicia, and Wales all appear to be variations on a naming theme.
And Walloons, Breton, and Spanish Galicians are often enough given to dark curly hair to make this plausible, and where “Celtic” peoples are blond–well, you must understand, my Norse ancestors got around. Of course, so did the Celts. (I am descended from a redhead named MacIntyre. I have assumed for years that the “red” came from Norse influence in the gene pool. Am I wrong? Maybe.)
Anyway, this would mean the “black” Irish were there first. The “red” Irish would be Celts with some Norse blood.
“In my nightmares I am chased by algorithms”–crewman Celes, ST:V
I, too, have heard that common explanation, foolsguinea, but after exploration, believe it to be incorrect.
Compton’s Online says that Celts were a ‘red-haired’ race; EB online doesn’t say one way or the other, but quotes Roman historians as noting that the Celts were ‘fair-haired’ (the difference between red and blonde can at times be difficult to tell; my ex-wife was an example). The Scotii of northern Great Britain (from whose name comes Scotland) are described as being fair to red haired before any norse incursions.
Perhaps there is still debate about this that I haven’t seen, but the main information seems to indicate fair-haired Celts, not dark-haired Celts.
On the subject of “Black Irish”–I always understood it simply to mean people of Irish descent (whatever THAT may mean, what with Vikings and Gauls and Scots and Celts and Normans and who-knows-what-all), who had black hair, very blue eyes, and what my grandmother would have called “a porcelain complexion”, as opposed to lots of freckles accompanied by red hair and greenish or blueish eyes. I have no idea where those genes would have come from, sorry, and neither did Grandma. (But she did know, by golly, that male “Black Irish” were usually rascals and heartbreakers, and that the females almost certainly had “the Sight”.)
Where is the Human Genome Project when we really need it? Let’s get this settled, once and for all. DNA testing, immediately, for the entire population of Ireland, American movie stars and blocked novelists included.
The Black Irish column reminded me of something, so I looked up “shipwrecked Spanish sailors” in the Archives, and ended up reading the column about possible Spanish last names in Ireland, which, sure enough, reminded me that people who raise Connemara ponies in Ireland will tell you that they (the ponies, not the people) are descended from Spanish horses that swam ashore from the wreckage of the Armada. Truth or fiction? Maybe when those researchers finish the human genome project they can start in on the equine genome, and answer this question once and for all, too.
As a person of Irish descent, I have a question: the Celts were not the original inhabitants of Ireland-the moved in sometime around 400-500 BC. Who were these (original) indigenous people? My understanding is that they were dark haired and of darker complexion than the Celts who displaced them. Of course, the Irish today are a mix of saxon, celt, viking and a lot of other things!
I would doubt much is known about the phenotypical features of the Bronze Age people who inhabited Ireland. For what Encyclopedia Britannica has to say, go here.
The trouble with identifying phenotypes for cultures of this age is a lack of pictoral representation that includes such things as hair color, skin color, etc. Without contemporary written descriptions (as by Caesar about the Celts in Gaul), there is little evidence upon which to base assumptions about phenotype.
I should mention that not everyone buys that the Galicians are Celtic.
Of course, in ancient times, Celts were all over Europe, and there are a lot of modern nations that have a mix of roots–Celtic, Germanic, and otherwise.
These days, the Irish (who are themselves descended partly from Norsemen) seem to think that “Celtic” is practically synonymous with “Irish” or “Gaelic.”
To which I say: “THHPPPTTTHH!”
Party per bend sinister wavy bendy sinister wavy vert & or, & sable, in fess point a demi-pellet en soleil issuant from the partition, in sinister base a roundel bendy sinister wavy vert & or. Or something like that.
To many, the complicated means by which their culture came about is usually beyond comprehension without some study; look at America. But I don’t think too many people are unaware that the main elements of Gaelic life come from Celtic roots, including clan structure, traditional clothing and those lovely/god-awful (depending on your tastes) war pipes.
I’m a descendent of the “Black Irish”. I’ve traced my specific family line back only to 1800 but continue to search for clues. I can tell you that in addition to the dark brown/black hair and porcelain complexion, that strain of family also carries BLACK eyes. ALL of my other ancestors have blue or green eyes except this line. Some are born with BLACK eyes, meaning no distinction in color between the iris and pupil, others have dark brown eyes with gaps in the iris. Those gaps continue to expand over time and by age 55-60 are completely black. By age 75 or so the eyes turn a charcoal grey color. Our line is within the Sullivan & McCarthy lines. There some interesting things about that, for instance the Coat of Arms includes the Stag with Golden Antlers, meaning those with “elevation of the mind” or those who practiced “the Arts”. The name means “Hawk-eyed” & they’re known to be the descendent of Eoghnacht. Also, the Kingship of the “mythical” Erainn peoples, whatever that means and home of the Banshees. Banshees (Women of the Sidhe) are sometimes referred to as “fairies or mythical” women, but were actual women heard wailing in the hills by the tombs because they had “The Sight” & could foretell of death. Most of my family is very religious and found such mythical “unknowns” as a taboo subject. However, a few years ago, prior to my research, some of us fessed up to one another that we experience such things and assumed that was why a couple of people in our family drank heavily to numb the brain. We also all have elevated adrenal glands for you Doctor types who are interested. I would really be interested in contacting or hearing from “Notthemama” or anyone else regarding these subjects.
Sidhe blood. Seriously, though, Cecil’s explanation seems plausable to me. If you have a small population, a few people coming in can have a big effect on the gene pool.
And, sassybencounter, btw, usually heraldic symbols don’t mean much. A stag on a coat of arms doesn’t neccesarily mean anything about the individual who holds the arms.
I really have nothing to add here, other than I, too, have been brought up to believe I’m “black Irish.” To find my race/creed doesn’t really exist was quite an interesting read for me. I, like everyone else in my immediate family, have extremely dark brown/black hair, bright blue eyes and fair skin. I also have freckles and tan rather than burn, which makes me an anomaly in my clan. While my parents often explained to me how we’re “as pure black Irish as we can be, considering we’re Americans” I often wondered about that McPeak branch of the family, who are all redheads. Of course, good Irish girls are not brought up to sass our parents, so I let the matter rest. Good thing I have Cecil to keep me on the straight and true.
The question is, do I forward this to my mother or not?
I’m Irish, as far back as records permit early 1800’s both sides of my family have been predominantly Dark haired and sallow skinned. So I am one of the “Black Irish”
