Oh I thought we were taling about the verdict of a well publicized trial. Silly me. :smack:
Sure it is clear, I understood that before.
I din’t poll them. My sense from hanging out there off and on over the course of the trial was that the folks there were more interested in a fair trial than the outcome of the actual trial.
By the time the verdict was arrived at, it was clear to objective folks there was a very strong chance the prosecution had not met its burden, and if that was the case, the only Just verdict was “not guilty”.
So when the verdict came down as “not guilty”, it was perceived as very likely the trial was in fact Just.
All of this has jackshit to do if anyone thinks he killed the victims or not, that is an entirely separate matter and I am not interested in it in the least.
I don’t know the crowd was all white at all. May have been some blacks, almost certainly were Asians there.
Hope that helps, but I am afraid it doesn’t, and if you are not sold on the importance of Capital-J justice, then probably nothing I can say can convince you.
But I am proffering precisely the same reasoning as to why the law students mentioned above cheered - because the people involved cared about a deep principle.
Or maybe it is easier for you to believe someone lost a bet and had to buy the house a round of drinks?
I know more black folks than I can handle, and I’m not aware of any of them answering any polls, but if they did, I would bet money that those that knew he was guilty and were happy he got off would answer a to the ‘white media’ that he is innocent. The polls don’t sway me.
I think a lot of white people want to believe that blacks think he is guilty. Cause then, those white folks that were weirdly invested in the case for the wrong reasons could claim a victory where they had felt defeated. Instead of ‘they won. They wanted to have a chance to see their side get away with some injustice and have the system back them up. And they got their wish’. I think it is much easier for them to pretend, "look at those fools. They think he is innocent, when all of us people that are not idiots can see that he is guilty’. But nope. They know he is guilty.
Why does it have to be black vs. white? Why does everyone have to be tarred with the opinion of people in some way demographically like them in some poll? I am pretty sure I would have resented being so lumped when 80% of whites or whatever were all in favor of GWB’s performance. Why would it be different any other time for anyone else?
Not alice, I just think it was. I think there were three kind of people. People that didn’t get all worked up over it, (why should that injustice trump all the others that I was aware of), white people that got overly invested in it, for bad reasons, and blacks that got over invested in it for bad reasons. I think all of those bad reasons were racially charged.
Frankly, it diminishes your credibility to simply claim something in the face of evidence to the contrary.
And to make further assumptions that “white people want to believe that blacks think he is guilty” as if they were doing so in the face of evidence to the contrary is even more ridiculous. Whites who believe there is a widespread belief among blacks that OJ is guilty have data to back up that belief. For you to hold that the reason for it is some sort of ulterior motive revolving around wanting to “pretend” that blacks are fools is silly, unless you have some sort of data other than a limited personal poll.
People who believe OJ is innocent are fools, at least with respect to this issue. But the reason to believe the majority of blacks think OJ is guilty is…substantial evidence to that effect. Blacks believing in OJ’s innocence is not a myth. It’s a fact.
There have been posts in this very thread from posters saying they believe blacks think he is innocent, despite never hearing a single black say that. I think my ‘credibility’ will survive even if I don’t believe that people would be honest with pollsters on this topic. And I flat out don’t believe they would.
People who believe OJ is innocent are fools. So what? What has that to do with anything at all?
Luckily, I am smart enough to know to qualify ev ver ry thing on this board. Always. So I know I didn’t say “white people want to believe that blacks think he is guilty”, so you can take those quotation marks and put right back into ‘wtf’ land along with the grand shocker that people who believe OJ is innocent are fools. I said a ‘lot’ of white people. If there are a lot of white racists in this nation, then I guess we can go ahead and infer there are a lot of white folks that what to believe that blacks think he is guilty.
As for whites collecting data to back up the belief that there is a widespread belief amongst blacks that OJ innocent (I think that’s what you meant, though you said “guilty” ) cracks me up to tears. I am not exagerating. That is honestly belly aching hilarious. White people got data to back up what us black folks think? Hee!
Not alice, I said ‘overly invested’. Whew. Was wise enough to qualify my statements! I think they blacks that were overly invested wanted some kind of ‘reverse injustice’ for whites. Let them get a taste of the ol’ medicine. Racism was behind that, I think. I think the whites that were overly invested had racist tendencies that came from not liking the idea of some nigger getting away with murdering that lily white gal. Or, on a less extreme note, were made uncomfortable seeing a system fail whites to favor blacks, contrary to what they thought usually would happen.
Apropos of nothing, I hate those question mark smilies. More than all the other smilies put together. I have seen them used in a joking way that cracks me up when they are executed properly, but when they are used in a manner of someone blinking innocently in mock confusion…grrrrrr!
Really? I don’t believe any honest person could pretend the trial didn’t ultimately become a referendum on race and the police. Where was the outrage from white people when Robert Blake or Phil Spector (the first time) got off? Or alternatively, where was the outrage when Michael Jackson got off the first time?
White people were mostly offended that this guy they’d “allowed into their homes” via sports and movies would dare to pull the race card. Black people were happy that someone was finally lifting up the rug to expose all the cockroaches. The trial became a proxy for race, and a particularly compelling example of how differently blacks and whites view the world.
Even now, I see people implying that there is no way OJ was framed. Forget about his factual guilt of innocence (and I believe he is guilty); there is a strong possibility that he was framed. The problem is that the majority of white people don’t live in a world where things like that can happen to them, and by extension, happen to other people. They don’t live in a world where police officers sodomize people with a broom, shoot them in the back while they are laying on the ground, lie about shooting unarmed people, etc, etc.
Is it really a surprise that the realm of things that are possible and impossible is very different to someone who has internalized these sorts of things? Black people who live in the city have a very different relationship with crime and law enforcement than people who live elsewhere. They see people who rob liquor stores in shootouts with cops. White people see Madoff steal billions and be handled with kid gloves. There is a civility that doesn’t exist in our neighborhoods and culture. For us, it’s low-trust honor culture. People often forget how both perspectives color one’s outlook. That’s really what’s at issue, and something that has sadly not been addressed.
The same things that convince many black people that OJ is actually innocent are the same things that makes them believe they can’t succeed in college, become a lawyer, or even get an office job. It’s also what facilitates white people being scammed by people like Bernie Madoff, and convinces them that they should clutch their purse a little tighter when a swarthy person passes them on the street at night. It would have been great if the OJ trial really helped us address our misconceptions, but I think it just strengthened our resolve to not address the underlying issues.
I remember plenty of outrage about those cases. Not as much as the OJ Simpson case, but then again, there wasn’t as much of a media frenzy surrounding those situations.
What makes you so certain that they never heard a single black person say such a thing?
And even if they didn’t, you still have the aforementioned polls that indicate what black people believed. I don’t think you need to personally hear a black fella comment on this issue before you assume that the polls are basically accurate.
I take it your position, then, is that there is some sort of conspiracy among blacks to lie to pollsters, and/or that the pollsters are incompetent.
Your insistence upon smearing whites by promoting an inference that “there are a lot of white folks that want to believe that blacks think he is guilty” as if there were no evidence to support that is unconscionable, divisive and reflective of a completely unsupported opinion not based in reality.
You have not advanced a shred of evidence that the NBC news poll was constructed by whites, created to advance an anit-black agenda, was biased in any way, or was otherwise inappropriately skewed. And yet, remarkably, you make the statement that “As for whites collecting data to back up the belief that there is a widespread belief amongst blacks that OJ innocent…” as if you had some such evidence. What is it?
I am uninterested in “debating” this further, but your personal bias is so far from anything substantiatable by you that those who do wish to debate it are going to be left with arguing with an individual who makes unilateral statements based on personal bias without, apparently, any understanding of what a supported fact is.
So what’s the verdict on Rosa Parks sittin’ her ass down and Rodney King deserving that ass whoopin’? (Begin watching at 4:40 if you don’t get the reference, or at 6:10 if you want to get straight to it.)
Jthunder, I’m gonna go 'head and focus on your last statement…
It is my opinion…based on conversing with black people that I know, that the ones that are happy he got off believe he is guilty. I can’t speak for all black folks. But, nevertheless, it is my opinion, based on my experience in the black community, that the ones that rejoice in his getting off know that he did it. I do not believe that they would tell a pollster, or any white person that. I can be wrong. It is my opinion though, that they would never provide such data to pollsters.
I need to ratchet back and be clear, because I am beginning to emote, and not be clear. So let me answer you and Chief more clearly. It is my opinion that black folks that were rejoicing an idea of a black man beating the rap are not providing that data to pollsters accurately. It is true that I could be wrong about that.
Since I don’t think you mean “all” black folks, since you said you are smart enough to qualify everything, how would you describe the subset of black folks that you are talking about so we are all in alignment with you on that?
Similar for when you mention qualified subsets white folks?
Missed edit window, sorry:
ETA: After seeing Cheifs post, I just want to say, that yeah, again, you are right. Theses are my opinions, not supported in anyway by NBC News’ pollsters. I would not look to pollsters for answers to the climate in the black community…that would be… odd to me.
You got me on one thing for sure, though. I am not great at great debates. Always a student, though, if not the best or brightest. In the mean time, I try to stick to giving my *opinion *on matters.
This quote:
"As for whites collecting data to back up the belief that there is a widespread belief amongst blacks that OJ innocent…" as if you had some such evidence. What is it?
; confuses me. I was stating to you that I think it is funny that you said white folks have data supporting their ideas about what black folks think. I found that funny in a thread that I wasn’t finding much to laugh about, and getting all worked up. I don’t know why you quoted it just now.
As for your disinterest in debating this, I had actually started the thread to opine. (love that word). I didn’t really think I would stand a chance at going up against seasoned debaters requesting cites and such. I was down to try though.
This is what has always bugged me about the racial slant on the OJ case. The way I see it, it’s not about race, it’s about class. I grew up around poor white people, and they didn’t get away with shit. They had the same problems with police that poor black people have. Believe me, there was no polite deference involved.
Rich people, black or white, can buy their way out of trouble. Meanwhile, cops feel they have a license to abuse poor people, black or white.
