I can’t say that I’ve ever heard anyone claim that an accomplished “black” person isn’t really black, and it seems like a kind of strange argument to make. I’m not sure I quite follow your KB/BJ examnple. Are you saying this is something that blacks say about accomplished blacks?
Mike Fun, let me try again.
I am referring to many non-blacks that may argue with certain black people that a certain group or individual is not really black.
Lets take for instance Barack Obama.
A black person, (let’s call her keisha) may express pride that he is accomplishing great things.
A white person, (lets call him Billy, although if pressed for a real life example, I offer up Rush Limbaugh)…will say “Nope! He isn’t really black.”
I am saying that I have seen this type of scenerio repeated with many different examples…not just Barack Obama.
I’m a skinny, good looking white woman with a fairly normal name from a stable middle class background - to me Oprah says “stop feeling sorry for yourself - if you HAVEN’T, it isn’t because “the man” is keeping you down.”
Because it doesn’t only apply to blacks (if it did, that would be a very very racist statement, and I would never say it). You can fill in woman, Latinos, short people, Scientologists, your religion, your ethnic background, whatever. Some people are always willing to blame their lack of success on anything but their inability to get out there and do some work.
This is where you lose me. It’s one thing to point out that those of mixed ancestory are acknowledged for having a “non-black” component. It’s quite another to claim that any time a person of 100% black ancestory accomoplishing something of merit that people are desperate to find non-blackness in them. The first scenario seems to be offereing an accurat look at things. The Tiger Woods example is a good one. He is half Asian and half Black. So, why is he a “black golfer”? I know that a “black” appearance, even if someone is just 10% black, means that they’ll be going through life a s a black person (whatever that means), but that has nothing to do with the skiil of golfing. So, most of your examples seems to simply acknowledge reality—that the person is not 100% black and that they belong to another race, as well.
Another example that I think that is illuminating is Bill Cosby. I have never heard anyone doubt his ancestory, while I have heard people distinguish him from the strereotypes of many American blacks. The discussion gets murky because we have more than one concept of blackness. One is mere ancestory, and one is more cultural. Woods an Obama not only have mixed ancestory, but there cultural background is not what most people would be the background of most American blacks.
I’m not sure where the OP is going.
Are there some whites who will turn themselves inside out to refuse to recognize any accomplishments by black people? Absolutely.
Are there a few blacks who will bend over backwards to claim accomplishments for blacks where the evidence varies from unclear to strongly negative? Yeah.
On the other hand, I do not see the large majority of people going out of their way to deprive successful people of the adjective “black.”
Even the OP has to reach to make the point.
I have never heard anyone say that Condoleeza Rice was not black.
I have heard Colin Powell described as not “African-American” in those discussions where someone asserts that that term may only be applied to descendants of slaves imported directly to the U.S. I have never heard anyone claim he was not black.
I have never in my life heard Ethiopians described as anything but black.
I do not recall anyone in my experience claiming that Hallie Berry was not black, even after photos of her blonde mother showed up after one of the awards shows. I guess it would not surprise me if someone made that statement, but most people (black and white) seem to follow the old “one drop” rule and consider Hallie black.
When we move into other areas, it gets either murky or silly.
The Nubian dynasties were certainly darker than the people from the Lower Nile and some people get into a real froth worrying over whether some number of Egyptian dynasties were “really” black or white, although I suspect that such people are missing the point that, as a continental crossroads, the people of the Lower Nile Valley were a mixture of a lot of different populations. (On the other hand, claims that Cleoparta, with her strong Macedonian ancestry, was “black” are silly.)
Jesus was pretty certainly a typical Mideastern person who was clearly not African/black.
To the extent that anyone hates Oprah, it seems to be based on their reaction to talk show hosts, just as Maury Povich and Phil Donahue (and Montel Williams), to say nothing of Jerry Springer, are hated.
I’ve never encountered anyone who expressed hatred (or even dislike) for the Willimas sisters, although I have heard some of the usual complaints about their father that follow the parents of any very young athletes.
So aside from a very few nutcases on both sides of the color line, I do not see the matter as a prevalent one in society.
I’m curious as to whether the OP was triggered by the remarks that seem to echo these lines
that seem to echo an odd comment taken from the post in this thread where the poster makes an odd technical point (that really misses the whole issue by ignoring actual language usage? I do not believe that that poster is actually making the statement that you believe he is, (although I grant that his comment is more than odd).
However, Diamond did not happen to have many options. He was discussing traditionally recognized ethnic groups in Africa, three of which would be labelled "black’ in causual American convcersation and while he had recognizable words to use to identify the Khoisan, there is simply no speific word (other than Negroid) to identify the larger population living in much of Africa. I don’t think he was seaparating “black Africans” from "white Europeans, but calling attention to the reader that there were more “racial” groups in Africa than many people recognize. (Bantu does not work because it is a lingusitic identifier that crosses “racial” lines.)
Colin Powell is, if I recall correctly, the child of Jamaican immigrants, and thus, not a child of American slavery. He and Obama share the ‘not black’ for that stigmata. They are of, say, ‘race’, but not of ‘culture’. (Meh.)
As far as the rest of it? The Ethopian thing I can’t say much on, but… well, hell, Cleopatra wasn’t black, Jesus was jewish, we’re not sure what color our remotest ancestors were, (See ongoing thread. Apes have pale skin.) And as far as graffiti, Taki 183, one of the first big artists, was greek. Other early artists were Puerto Rican and black. Hugo Martinez, who was a major force in turning it into recognized arc, was hispanic.
That said, one problem is that you’ve mixed falsehoods (Cleopatra was black) with social culture questions (If someone does not come from a history of American slavery, are they black, insofar as the black experience is concerned?) and moronic idiots. (Rush’s ‘Halfrican’ comments.) Some have factual answers, some have interpretation issues, and some are just morons bloviating.
If I can expound a little on fessie’s post: “White people are afraid of black people.”
All people are afraid of people who are not in their ‘in’ group, to varying degrees. White, Black, Chinese, Jewish, almost any group you can pick has some degree of xenophobia.
It just so happens that being able to tear down a celebrity is national sport here. It also just so happens that no one wants to be seen as racist for tearing down a black celebrity. Put these two together and it would make sense why billy bob limbaugh would claim someone wasn’t black. It allows them to claim a celebrity has jumped the shark, or more cynically if they were so inclined, belittle their accomplishments.
I’ve heard people say that he’s so light, that he must be more white than black, and ask if he should really be considered black.
Condi wasn’t discounted for being black. She was discounted as someone who could disprove the “only poor uneducated blacks give their kids weird names, and blacks with weird names will never be successful outside the entertainment/sports fields” argument that someone here on this board was using. Their reasoning was that her name didn’t count because it’s derived from an italian phrase. While this is true, I’d be willing to bet that mainstream America didn’t know that and just considered her a girl with one of those “weird black” names.
Never heard of it.
I have heard it said that Cleopatra was black, but no reasonable black person I have ever met truly believes that. So I really want to leave her out of this. It is silly, and no one is claiming that she is black.
The Ethiopian thing I am retracting. I learned about all that the Ethiopian culture gave to the Ancient Egyptian culture, and as a child we were taught that, therefore, even Greek culture owed something to ancient black cultures. Then, I started hearing from some that it was not true…Ethiopians weren’t really black. So, I thought that perception was more widespread than it really is, I guess.
TomnDebb, the fact that you don’t understand where I am really going with this is a blow to me. I tried to lay this down clearly, and you are one of the people on this board that I look to for lessons on how to sharpen my communication and debate skills.
I won’t say a large majority of people are doing that. But there are many that I have had these discussions with, or read their opinions on message boards, in newspapers, or in books…that actually will try to deny that blacks have accomplished anything by disqualifying as ‘black’ any groups that have indisputably accomplished great things.
Also, I don’t think I had to reach at all to make my points in the OP. I have heard it said many, many times that Halle is not black enough, or not really black.
The thing is, growing up in my culture, someone like Halle was black. Now, Mariah may be ‘mixed’, which was, in my culture, almost the same as being black. But Halle was what we called a “light skinned black girl” so we were a little baffled when we started hearing how she wasn’t ‘really black’. Of course, as kids in school, we often didn’t know if the little lightskinned girls actually had a white parent.
I don’t know any mixed race people that didn’t identify as black, now that I think of it. That is neither here nor there, but it just occurred to me.
And yes, tomndebb, it was the ‘Were the first humans black’ thread and the comment that you pointed out that triggered me.
I think it’s the opposite - when they become successful, we fear them more. So we look for ways to negate their blackness and make them one of “us”.
Might that be because you’re black? I’m just trying to picture the pair of balls on someone who could look a black woman in the face and make an issue of not “really” being black. I don’t see it happening. Especially someone who (and I say this based on your previous posts) is obviously a strong and proud black woman. (psst…I’m not *scared *of ya, but in real life, strong and proud black women do intimidate the hell out of me sometimes! 
)
I had a friend in college who had an Irish mother and a black father. (Man, was she beautiful!) Raised in a white suburb by white mom and white grandparents for Christmas and she self-identified as white. She didn’t hide the fact that her father was black, but it was clear that (in her mind) her *father *was black, not her.
I’ve currently got two (unrelated) Asian/black folks I call friend, both of them raised in Asian-American households. Again, when pressed, they’ll label themselves mixed, but consider themselves Asian.
I don’t, actually, know anyone clearly mixed who identifies as black! Maybe, again, because I’m white. Maybe we’re hanging out with the very same people, but when talking to me, they want to have “not-black” in common, and with you, they want to have “black” in common! 
There are, as I noted, very definitely people (generally white) who will denigrate any accomplishments by any blacks. I would never challenge that statement. There are probably a large (if unquantified) number of whites who generally disparage black accomplishments.
I was confused regarding the direction this thread was going because I have not, personally, encountered anyone silly enough to deny that Rice or Powell (or Ethiopians) were black.
As to people you encounter on message boards and news articles, I suspect that they are simply loud, but not necessarily prevalent.
Lordy, this thread just makes me wish we were further along on the “everyone has fucked everyone” stage of human existence. I recently met a girl who is a Austrian-Iraqi-Egyptian Jew, and who grew up in Israel. What would we do if she became famous? Who would claim her, the Europeans, the Middle Easternians, the Africans, or the Jews? Jesus Christ.
(don’t worry, she’s a non-practicing Jew)
Is it true that black is a descriptive term until something better comes along? No one needs to point out Condi, Rihanna or Denzel Washington is black. Rappers point it out so often they keep their moniker, but other than that…
I don’t think the phenomenon described occurs universally, but I think it does occur, and moreover there are parallels with the identity of other “out groups”, women being one of the ones that’s been noted and commented on before. (It’s pretty hard to imagine the sense in which an adult female person can be described as “not a woman”, but there does persist a cultural notion of “Woman” and what it means to be one which somehow remains untouched by the Benazir Bhuttos, Marie Curies, and Hope Solos of the world. People say “we don’t mean her” or “she doesn’t count, she’s an exception”).
If I may be so bold to speak for Nzinga, I understand what she is saying because I grew up with the same experiences.
Distinguishing people as “mixed” and “biracial” is not often done by black people. Mixed people are routinely considered black. Maybe they’re called a “light-skinned black person” if a physical description is needed, but not a lot of emphasis is placed on quantifying racial composition and designating these things with special labels. This is because historically African-Americans are mixed. There are plenty of non-biracial black people out there who look more mixed up than the so-called mixed folks.
So when someone says Halle Berry is not “really black” because her mother is white, lots of blacks will say “so what?” Boil down the DNA of the African-American ethnic group, and chances are you’ll find many so-called “100% black people” with more white blood than Halle has. So downplaying her blackness on that basis often raises their eyebrows.
Downplaying blackness has a rather long and tawdry history. So it’s not surprising that many mixed people don’t consider themselves black, but rather something else. That’s why when people who can get away with saying that they’re not really black make a point of emphasizing their black heritage instead of shying away from it, they are seen favorably by many blacks.
Is this a variation on the “No True Scotsman” thing, where whenever someone doesn’t fit someone else’s preconceived notions of X, they become not-X?
For example, you might see Christians claim that Fred Phelps isn’t a “real Christian.” Or the Pope isn’t, or Jesse Jackson isn’t, or pro-choice people aren’t, etc.
I’m curious as to why you have this particular perception of Oprah. Has she ever come out against all these unseen black people who attribute ills to “the man”? Just wondering because I don’t have this view of her.
I hope you don’t think I’m picking on you, but I often notice that in order for a black person to be held in high esteem in mainstream quarters, they have to be seen as opponents of certain positions that people like to attach to all black people. Like “the man is holding me back” canard. Most black people I know do not go around blaming white people for their problems. So why is it that whenever a famous black person says something that even hints at criticizing other black people, so many white people seem to ga-ga over them? Am I alone in seeing this pattern?
Chris Rock is a good example with this, with his infamous “niggers vs black people” routine. So is Bill Cosby. Black conservatives like Thomas Sowell are others. As your post suggests, Oprah Winfrey is also viewed as being this kind of “anti anti-the man” spokesperson. But I don’t really know why. I seem to recall her raising a big stink about Hermes discriminating against her not that long ago.