Thinking of everyone I’ve ever known who was raped or was the target of attempted rape, not a single one of them was walking alone in a dangerous neighborhood at night when she was attacked. I can’t off the top of my head even think of having heard a story on the news about such a thing. There must have been cases of women being raped under such circumstances, but it’s got to be one of the least common rape situations. I’ve heard of more cases of women being raped in their own homes by intruders.
It’s not like there are lots of women going for solitary night strolls in dangerous neighborhoods just for fun anyway. If a woman is walking alone in a dangerous neighborhood at night then she’s probably got a good reason for it – like (as DianaG pointed out) she lives in that dangerous neighborhood and doesn’t have a car.
I am curious as to this attitude. I don’t see this belief in the post. I see **NinjaChick **stating that you and only you can try to control your safety- even in dangerous areas.
I would feel the same about strong-arm robberies. They are not justifiable to the person robbed, but if I am robbed, I will definitely feel stupid if I was warned. Is it my fault? No, but I would have been less likely to be robbed in a ‘safe’ environment, even though that has actually mostly been the circumstances described.
I would not blame the woman in any way.
Could it have been avoided? Possibly.
Would I tell her so? Never in a million years.
Would I provide a list like NinjaChick’s if I was asked about avoiding assault, both sexual and other? Every time!
Perhaps you can pull yourself out of your sorrow to actually read what I said. The onus to not be raped does not lie on the women, because that’s stupid. A woman does not rape herself.
A woman, just like a man, does have a responsibility to look out for themselves. Does society have means to deal with that which the victim couldn’t avoid, and by extension deal with that which simply was overlooked? Yes - that’s why we have the police and the justice system. Does the fact that someone took a stupid risk mean that the rapist/mugger/other criminal is not guilty? No - that’s not at all what I’m saying. Does it mean that the victim, whether knowingly or not, increased the criminal’s chances of success? Yes. Does this mean I’m saying “if you’re raped while you’re drunk it’s your fault?” Again, no - all I’m saying is that if you, say, go to a club with a group of people, meet a guy, drink way too much, go home with guy, and something bad happens, then you did not take all the steps you could to prevent it. That is not saying it’s your fault, but just that you could have more to prevent it.
It’s like getting a cold. People in group A have a disgusting lack of hygiene habits - they don’t wash their hands before they eat, they pick their nose, they pick at their teeth with their fingers. People in group B are completely fastidious about keeping their hands clean and away from their face when colds are going around. Both types of people will sometimes get colds. Is it A’s fault that he catches a cold? No, no more than B is at fault if B gets sick, but A does need to admit he didn’t do everything to prevent getting a cold.
And I should have clarified before that I was talking about avoidable risks. If you live in a neighborhood with a high crime rate, then walking alone at night is a risk you may have to take. There are other ways to reduce that risk (see High Risk Behavior and Rape here for some), but I didn’t mean to imply that I think it’s possible to live a risk-free life. Regardless, I think my point stands (this past summer my housemate was mugged. Why? She went out walking alone at 12:45 AM. She did not need to do so. She took a risk, she lost her phone because of it. Could she 100% avoid being victimized? No. Was the risk the same had she not gone out at that hour alone? No.)
Trust me, Freudian Slit, the Cornish Crosses I raise will never fly-too heavy. And they are not especially attractive birds or I couldn’t raise them for meat.
Back on topic: The weird thing is that one of the men involved, the one I knew through work, wasn’t really a scummy human being. He was tearing up by the time I was done with him.
The other was a distinct asshole, however who treated his girlfriend like shite and had a very disdainful attitude towards woman in general.
As other posters have stated, Gurujulp, women aren’t always or even often raped in alleys.
They’re raped in their homes.
What bothered me about NinjaChicks post is what I perceive as her assumption that women should modify their behavior to remain safe from rape when we know that doesn’t necessarily work.
I believe we have to change how we view women and male/female relationships.
See, the men I now choose to associate with would never rape a woman-not even if she was passed out buck necked in their bed.
I would bet the farm that not one of them would be aroused by having sex with an unconscious woman.
Nor would they be aroused by a terrified, screaming, trembling woman.
Once again, to reiterate, rape is not a sexual act.
It’s an act of violence and domination.
I think people like to tell us not to do “obviously dangerous” things because we like to think it’s easy to watch out for our own safety. But what’s dangerous? I’ve never seen an alley that looked like it was an obvious rapist hang out spot. The one time I was assaulted, it was right outside a dormitory when the sun was still out. And honestly it seems like most of the places where people get raped are bedrooms, homes, etc. It seems like the answer is don’t ever associate with men if you absolutely NEVER want to be raped. And of course even then you could get your house broken into. You can’t win.
When I was researching rape for my violence and philosophy class, I found it striking how again and again the victims were blamed for getting raped. It seemed like each rape was dissected until some aspect of the victim’s behavior was the cause of her rape. It could be she was out at night without a trustworthy male escort, or that she was sleeping in the nude in her own bed, or her children had different last names from her. If there were any details that marked the victim as other than a modest, cautious, virgin, who tried to fight to the death, then juries would not convict. It is no mystery to me why a woman who was raped would choose not go to the police.
There is no justification for rape, no circumstance where it is ethical to rape, and yet, again and again we try to make excuses for rapists and condemn those who are raped, and especially those who admit to being raped.
So I, as a woman, have no responsibility to look after my own safety?
In my experience that’s often where these arguments end up, and that’s completely stupid. If I leave my laptop unattended in a library and it gets stolen, do you say that it’s in no way my fault in that there’s nothing I could have done to prevent it? If I leave my bicycle unlocked on the street while I’m at work, and it gets stolen, then it’s 100% the thief’s fault and I really had nothing to do with it, right? If I go out walking alone late at night in a sketchy neighborhood and I get mugged, then again I had nothing to do with it, right?
People who think that way strike me as either hopelessly naive, hopelessly stupid, or coming from one of two extreme viewpoints: “men are always wrong and womyn are always right” or “women are delicate flowers who could never actually look after themselves and keep themselves safe.” Yes, ultimate responsibility lies with the rapist, but how about some personal responsibility? I’m not saying blame yourself/the victim, I’m saying have a moment of sanity and rational analysis in which you acknowledge that it’s possible - I’m not saying certain, I’m not saying likely, just possible - that you/the victim did something easily avoidable that put you at higher risk.
I find that often, the “it’s never the woman’s fault and she had nothing to do with it beyond her physical presence there” just leads to more thinking along the lines of “men are big and scary and mean, and women are weak but should be able go home with the weird-but-hot-guy they hooked up with the other night, and do so while slobberingly drunk and without any functional means of self-defense and shouldn’t have to ever deal with any consequences.”
The world is a nasty place. People do not want what’s best for you; people are mean and cruel and will do terrible things. This is fact. Live with it.
It’s not that people shouldn’t look out for themselves. It’s that most people aren’t grabbed in dark alleyways. It’s often by people they know and trust in their own homes or the homes of people they know. I have been in areas where I was made be uncomfortable by guys but in that situation I was living there–what are you supposed to do if you LIVE in a sketchy neighborhood? Not go out alone?
If the girl comes to me wanting to talk about the experience, and tells me in the process that:
She was dating the guys at the time
Continued to see both guys, as friends, after the alleged rapes occurred
Did not go to the police about the incidents
In at least one instance, couldn’t give a direct answer when asked “Did you clearly convey to the guy that you were not consenting to what was happening?”
… then I conclude that the girl has left open enormous room for doubt. What would you conclude, lee?
When I was at college, again and again, I saw women who made a fuss about being raped, stalked, or otherwise assaulted being marginalized as crazy, or whores, or just attention whores. Some were driven out of college, some just suffered complete social ostracization. What makes it so hard to believe that in a climate like that that a young woman might actually be raped by someone in a social circle and choose not to press charges or issue an ultimatum that either the rapist is ostracized or I will leave the social circle?
Of course women should be taught about unsafe situations, including not going down dark alleyways or leaving drinks unattended. Everyone should, whatever gender. But focusing on this sort of rape prevention is a bit like spending all your time teaching little kids about stranger danger –worthwhile, but ignoring the much more likely scenario of being assaulted by someone who isn’t a stranger. And again, yes on safety and self defense training, but casting rapists (and molesters) as masked strangers in dark alleys doesn’t help with credibility when a victim’s rapist doesn’t fit the mold, and doesn’t help people in situations that don’t fit the stereotypes, from questioning oneself during the actual assault (‘What’s going on? This is my boyfriend, he can’t be doing this… right?’) to defining one’s experience to deciding whether or not to tell people or file charges.
In a way I think people cling to rapists in alleys because it’s harder and harder to question the details of many real rape scenarios without acknowledging that you’re arguing from a version of reality wherein women are not free. You went to his house so he could cook you dinner on a second date? You slept at your friend’s house and her brother was there? You forgot to lock your door? You went to his office to ask for a raise? You knew him and liked him for a year and agreed to a lift in his car? You were selling something on Craig’s List and he came by? You went to look at an apartment alone? You wanted to fool around but not have sex? You consented to vaginal sex but not anal? You had sex with him that night but didn’t want to in the morning? You dated him for three months and thought you could trust him?
Plus I think a lot of people (male and female) hate the idea that our friends or boyfriends or brothers can be rapists. Isn’t it nicer to think that the rapist is some skeezeball in the bushes or in a parking lot, instead of one of us?
For the last fucking time, rape is not theft. They are not remotely comparable.
Try to carry this analogy over to, say, a lynching. Well, the Black man or the gay teen went out in public being Black or gay! They know there are people who hate that! They clearly didn’t do everything they could to prevent being murdered, so obviously they must have some kind of responsibility for being lynched.
I really can’t imagine why a person would insist on comparing rape to theft, unless they considered pussy a commodity. It’s illuminating, isn’t it? Sad, but illuminating.
Is anyone really surprised that some people think of sex, pussy, virginity, etc. as a commodity? Historically, it was quite a common attitude and it still exists in many parts of the world.
I don’t agree with it and I don’t think it’s right… but the belief does exist.