Blue states have better schools

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Terr

See the “black students in Texas do better on tests than black students in Wisconsin” part of the post to which you were responding.

I see a selective set of comparisons that all include Texas.

It’s also the case that black kids in the US are going to be in disproportionately poorer areas anyway.

To be more comprehensive and on point, let’s look at differences among white kids.

From here: http://www.ed.gov/blog/2011/09/newly-released-state-by-state-snapshot-of-educational-performance/

Top 10 states white students 8th grade reading proficiencies

CT, NJ, MA, MD, PA, MN, NY, OH, IL, TX

Bottom 10 states:

WV, LA, OK, MS, NV, AL, AK SC, TN, RI
Top 10 states white students 4th grade math:

DC, MA, NJ, MN, TX, MD, NC, CT, NH, CO

Bottom 10 states:

WV, AL, TN, MS, LA, KY, OK, MI, OR, AZ
Four Year Graduation Rate, white students

Top 10: WI, MN, ND, NJ, VT, NE, IA, MA, IL, MO

Bottom 10: MS, HI, FL, SC, NM, GA, LA, AL, AK, AZ

So, one can see why someone might selectively choose Texas in order to misrepresent the state of things; it’s clearly an outlier. The point remains - red state schools are more likely to perform poorly.

[Bill_Door]

It’s not politics, it’s poverty. Look at the map.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bill_Door

It’s not politics, it’s poverty. Look at the map.

Those aren’t orthogonal. Do you think governmental policies are independent of poverty? Like, by chance it happens to be the case that poor states tend to be red states?

And yes, poverty has a lot to do with all of the other performance indicators, but these are the states that tend to vote against the very strategies that would best help them cope with the effects of poverty.

Look at a map of states that are planning to reject obamacare, for example.

[puddleglum]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

This presumes that academic performance level is fixed by race, so that measures of performance by school or region are impacted by student race.

An alternative, less racist and eminently more likely explanation is that disproportionately more black kids are educated in red state schools and suffer poorer outcomes as a result.

The top 10 states for Black test scores math 8th grade Hawaii-Democrat, Texas-Republican, Massachusetts-Democrat, Alaska-Republican, NJ-Democrat, Colorado-Democrat, South Dakota-Republican, Arizona-Republican, Kansas-Republican, Virginia-Democrat.
The bottom 10 states Arkansas-Republican, Rhode Island-Democrat, District of Columbia-Democrat, Wisconsin-Democrat, Missippi-Republican, Nebraska-Republican, Missouri-Republican, California-Democrat, Tennesee-Republican, Michigan-Democrat, Alabama-Republican.
Five each in the top ten and five each in the bottom ten. No discernible pattern for red state - blue state and test scores.

The whole thing is silly, since within living memory all of the Southern States were controlled by Democrats and most of the Northeast by Republicans. To treat how a state votes in the latest presidential election as an indicator of the kind of school system the citizens of those states have is ridiculous. Texas has a great school system and Alabama a bad one yet those are both red states. Massachusetts has a good school system and California a poor one and those are both blue states. There are huge difference between Texas and Alabam and between Massachusetts and California. All of the differences are too complicated to say that certain schools systems are definetly better and that it relates to partisan differences.

[Chronos]

The southern states have never been controlled by the party of which Obama is a member. They have been controlled by a completely unrelated party that happened to have the same name, but how is that relevant?

[JXJohns]

@puddleglum

…To treat how a state votes in the latest presidential election as an indicator of the kind of school system the citizens of those states have is ridiculous.

Pretty much. My state (Iowa) was consistently Red in 70’s and 80’s and our schools were top of the nation. Anyone ever taken the Iowa Test of Basic Skills?

We’ve been blue for the last 5 out of 6 elections and now our schools only cracked one of the top tens mentioned earlier. Regarding taxes paid vs. received we are happily taking in $1.50 to $2.00 for every $1 donated to the feds.

[Human_Action]

@Chronos

The southern states have never been controlled by the party of which Obama is a member. They have been controlled by a completely unrelated party that happened to have the same name, but how is that relevant?

When did the party of which Obama is a member come to exist?

[puddleglum]

@Chronos

The southern states have never been controlled by the party of which Obama is a member. They have been controlled by a completely unrelated party that happened to have the same name, but how is that relevant?

Obama is a democrat, the democrat party controlled the south from 1876-1992. The vast majority of voters in the south were educated at a time democrats controlled the south. That is relevant to debunk the idea that a lack of democrat control made the voters ignorant.

The only other party BHO was ever a member of was the New party which was only active from 1992-1998.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

puddleglum, did you see “black” in the OP somewhere? Why are you so fixated on black student performance?

If you exclude them, the picture is the same: red states are disproportionately poorer performing academic states. Your explanation doesn’t actually, you know, explain anything.

[Amateur_Barbarian]

@Tom_Tildrum

It’s statistical hand-waving. By and large, states don’t pay taxes or receive federal money; individuals do. The numbers shown essentially just reflect progressive taxation and the fact that wealthy people tend to live in and around large cities rather than rural areas.

Uh-huh. So the wealthy people who live where they choose to, and pay higher taxes, provide net welfare to the people who live in low-tax and no-tax states. I don’t see much hand-waving in that.

I’ll pay New England taxes rather than live in a welfare state and go to group rallies where everyone tries to convince each other they’re better for it. Kinda like those sects who are convinced they’re closer to Jeebus because they’re starving poor, not like those rich fat cats who keep their local food closet stocked.

[Snarky_Kong]

Are we pretending that the Democratic party pre and post Southern Strategy is the same party?

[Ludovic]

@puddleglum

Obama is a democrat, the democrat party controlled the south from 1876-1992.

The democrat party did not control the south at any time.

[puddleglum]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

puddleglum, did you see “black” in the OP somewhere? Why are you so fixated on black student performance?

If you exclude them, the picture is the same: red states are disproportionately poorer performing academic states. Your explanation doesn’t actually, you know, explain anything.

It was an illustration of simpsons paradox. Southern states perform worse on school tests because of simpsons paradox. This is because they have more poor students, and more minority students. So even if their schools were better, which is very difficult to determine, their scores could still be low.
North Carolina schools score above average for every racial group. The state voted blue in 2008 and red in 2012. I do not believe there is a correlation.
The late Senator from New York, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, used to say the strongest correlation in education was that states did better the closer they were to the Canadian border. The correlation between voting in the last election and educational achievement is nowhere near as strong as the Canadian border correlation. This does not mean that the Canada border makes kids smarter and the lesser correlation does not prove anything about what makes a good school.

[puddleglum]

@Snarky_Kong

Are we pretending that the Democratic party pre and post Southern Strategy is the same party?

In the sense that you can’t dip your foot in the same river twice no, but in every other respect yes.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@puddleglum

It was an illustration of simpsons paradox. Southern states perform worse on school tests because of simpsons paradox. This is because they have more poor students, and more minority students. So even if their schools were better, which is very difficult to determine, their scores could still be low.
North Carolina schools score above average for every racial group. The state voted blue in 2008 and red in 2012. I do not believe there is a correlation.
The late Senator from New York, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, used to say the strongest correlation in education was that states did better the closer they were to the Canadian border. The correlation between voting in the last election and educational achievement is nowhere near as strong as the Canadian border correlation. This does not mean that the Canada border makes kids smarter and the lesser correlation does not prove anything about what makes a good school.

But that’s not true. White kids perform poorly in red state schools. Children overall perform poorly in red state schools. Black kids’ performance is perhaps arguably not different across states. Race doesn’t explain the larger observed relationship.

I’m not sure you grasp the meaning of Simpsons paradox.

[Amateur_Barbarian]

@Ludovic

The democrat party did not control the south at any time.

You might want to start by googling around on “Solid South.”

[Ludovic]

@Amateur_Barbarian

You might want to start by googling around on “Solid South.”

Could you start me off with a cite that this “Solid South” was controlled by an organization called the “Democrat Party”?

[Amateur_Barbarian]

@Ludovic

Could you start me off with a cite that this “Solid South” was controlled by an organization called the “Democrat Party”?

In general, when every local, state and federal seat is filled by Democratic Party candidates for nearly 100 years, I’d say the Democratic Party is pretty well in control. (You might want to follow up in that googlemania with “Huey Long.”)

But I bet you’ve got some loophole in mind, so fire away. Maybe it’s because you’ve decided to hang it on the straw hook of the “Democrat [sic] Party.”

[Ludovic]

@Amateur_Barbarian

In general, when every local, state and federal seat is filled by Democratic Party candidates for nearly 100 years, I’d say the Democratic Party is pretty well in control. (You might want to follow up in that googlemania with “Huey Long.”)

I didn’t dispute the fact that the Democratic Party controlled the Solid South.

But I bet you’ve got some loophole in mind, so fire away. Maybe it’s because you’ve decided to hang it on the straw hook of the “Democrat [sic] Party.”

It’s a slur.

[Amateur_Barbarian]

Okay, not sure if that’s a whoosh or a WTF, but… okay.