Bob McNamara, Michael Moore, Robert Conrad: Success Through Failure?

In My Humble Opinion
21

Vote for him?
Do you realize that it took the star power of a former basketball star to even have a vague shot at cracking into the Democratic nomination?

Of course, I don’t think Michael Moore would run for office anyway. My impression is that he realizes that he might not run things in the best possible manner–and that there are a lot of things that * are * done right by our current government.
He simply wants to point out that we can do better, and provide a way for us to express our opinions. Is he a jerk because he harasses CEOs? well, if you’re a CEO, yes. But he harasses CEOs of companies that he feels are doing the American people a disservice, and he is not a jerk about it. he doesn’t send threatening letters, he doesn’t blow up their mailroom, he just makes them look kinda stupid on national TV for not being willing to takl to him.

Incidentally, he also organized Love Week, in which he got people to say “we love you” to bigots all over America. The gay men’s choir sang to Jesse Helms, racially diverse dancers performed for the Aryan Nation, a mariachi band performed for the Klan.
Granted, these were partly designed to annoy them, butI don’t have that much tolerance for these people–most of us don’t. The fact that he was willing to honestly organize an event to say that he cares for these people as human beings, despite the wide gulf in beliefs, says a hell of a lot to me.

You’re entitled to your opinion, but I would encourage you to watch him again. Out of curiousity, is it his politics as a whole that you don’t like? One particular aspect? or do you just not like him as a person?
Unless his private person is greatly different than his public image (something I highly doubt, given the fact that many of his causes are not all that popular), I suspect that he cares what happens to you, whatever your opinions. To me, that says a lot.

22

Well, what can I say? I am in the minority. I still think he’s a jerk and I dont like him. I think it is all too easy to just be negative and critical for someone like him who could not do anything. Gimme a break, this guy could not run hot dog stand.

I do not like people who are negative and just point out how bad everybody else is doing it. If you want to improve things stop criticizing and do something positive. I do not like those who say they are for the workers but all their rhetoric is against the employers of those workers.

I do not like those leaders who say they care for blacks but all their rhetoric is anti white.

I do not like those that claim the are for women but all they have to say is against men.

I do not like those that say they are for or against abortion and all they do is attack those who hold a different view.

I do not care for those who claim they are for their country but only have negative things to say about it.

Let’s face it, it is too easy to criticize everybody else and society as a whole but that does not improve anything. Michael Moore could not run the smallest business or get himself elected dogcatcher. The only thing he knows is to criticize other people who are doing something and he is not even funny or entertaining. I, for one, would definitely rather watch Jerry Springer. At least he is honest in describing what he does as trash.

23

Well, I’ll have one more crack at it before I call it a night.

First off, he is capable of working own his own–he worked as an editor long before becoming a celebrity of sorts (by risking everything he had on * Roger & Me). * He did not come from an extremely priviliged background, nor did he just waltz his way into the TV industry.

He is not negative–he performs many constructive acts.

  1. He supports unions–he even had his assistants join unions when they worked for him, so that he had no way to abuse his power as an employer (this is in his book, btw).

  2. He got the issue of unsafe baby walkers into the public eye, forcing the company to deal with the issue. (TV Nation)

  3. If you watch the episode w/ Payday, the workers at the plant were layed off * because they made profits. * The guy from the company even says that if they had made more profits, they would have been layed off sooner. A company that works like this seems like fair game to me. (TV Nation)

  4. He got a whole bunch of people on tape to say to Phil Knoght that they will gladly take jobs if he opens a Nike plant in Flint, Michigan–Phil didn’t take them up on the offer (The Big One)

  5. He did suceed in getting Phil Knoght to donate a good bg of money (which Moore matched) to the public schools of Michigan. (The Big One)

  6. He went and planted flowers for an outspoken anti-abortion activist. Not because he wanted to piss the guy off–they actually had a decent conversation–but because everybody can use some flowers, even people you don’t agree with. (TV Nation)

  7. The aforementioned incident with saving a man’s life (I didn’t see this personally, but I will trust the other posters to be factually accurate).

  8. He went to Russia just to point out that they really aren’t that scary or different than us (with the joke premise of getting the missile pointed away from Flint). (TV Nation)

  9. He brought several “welfare moms” to Gov Thompson, trying to get them work, since their welfare was being cut back (note that these are people who want to work, but either can’t find jobs or are full-time students trying to improve their opportunities). (TV Nation)

And this list goes on…

Boy, these sure sound negative to me.
Of course he attacks things–it’s necessary to make a point sometimes, and also provides some humor value (IMHO, anyway).

Overall, though, his message is a positive one–that we are a priviliged country, and that we should work protect our rights, while at the same time helping those who do not enjoy the same rights and privleges we do.

If you just dislike the guy, fine. If you disagree with his politics, fine. But if you tell me that he can’t and hasn’t been part of the working class he’s sticking up for, you’re ignoring simple facts. If you want to dispute this, take a look at the examples I cited above: I’ve referenced them all (I can go into greater detail if you’d like–chapter, episode, etc–but I feel those are sufficient for the purposes at hand).
These are facts about what he has done to benefit this county and the people in it. Moreover, most of the profits from everything he does do not go to him–they go to various charities and such.
If you think he’s a jerk that just complains, I’m truly scared to see the standard you hold the rest of us up to.

24

Sailor, we criticize because we care, dammit. We criticize in order to make lives and living better. If there wasn’t criticism of the British actions to the New World colonists, would there be the Revolutionary War? If there wasn’t criticism to slavery, would it end as it did in 1865? If there wasn’t criticism to Hitler’s rise to power, would there be that willingness to sacrifice so that no one would have to live under the Third Reich? We criticize so that others, who can do something about what is criticized, would be compelled to do something about it. Peaceful dissident opinions and critical thoughts can influence and become the basis for majority attitudes and thoughts someday. Gadflies, or jerks to you, to the left or right of the mainstream are good, and in fact necessary, for the country. Think about that, sailor.

25

Uh… just a small request? Could people forget the politics of Michael Moore (I KNOW, it’s hard) a second, and deal with the orignal concept of the post?

I admit, I HATE Moore. But I actually sort of like RObert Conrad, and have only mixed feelings about Robert McNamara.

I lumped those 3 guys together as an example of a trend. In all kinds of fields, it appears that no matter HOW miserably you fail, time and time again, SOMEBODY who ought to know better is always EAGER to throw money at you and give you another chance.

Even IF Robert McNamara is a brilliant guy, there’s no way around it: he’s King Midas in reverse (to quote the Hollies). EVERYTHING he touches ends in disaster! He destroys everything he touches. The decline of FOrd, the Viet Nam War, the massive debtload of developing countires… these ALL happened on HIS watch. And yet, he’s NEVER been unemployed. No matter HOW badly he screws up, he gets a bigger, better job afterward.

Even if you LIKE Robert Conrad, and even if you LOVE Michael Moore, their track records are pitiful! EVen if you LOVED their shows, FACTS are FACTS. They had no viewers, and no ratings. But no matter how badly they fail, SOME TV executive somewhere will say, “THIS time it will be different! Hire him again!”

It’s the same in sports. How the hell did Don Zimmer get to manage half the teams in major league baseball, when he never won a pennant anywhere?

Lest you think my motives are ENTIRELY political, I assure you that, if I were a movie studio head, I’d gladly give $20 million to a left-wing actor with a proven box office record (and if he turned around and donated half to Ralph Nader, fine by me). On the other hand, Sylvester Stallone has made nothing but flops for AGES now, and still gets $20 mill a flick. WHY???

Rather than defend/attack Michael Moore, answer: why are big networks so eager to shower this guy with money, given his track record?

How do so many people seem to RISE in the world, despite their miserable failures?

26

My explanation of Michael Moore to conservatives is as follows: Look at Moore as being the liberal version of Rush Limbaugh. They’re more alike than you might think. They’re both more entertainers than political analysts. They both occasionally get facts wrong (although Moore tends to be more accurate than Limbaugh). They’re both fat (although Limbaugh has lost a little weight lately) and thus refreshing in their challenge to the media’s notion that only fully buffed people should appear in public. They’ve both made a lot of money from what they’ve done (although Limbaugh has made a lot more than Moore has).

Limbaugh was more interesting toward the beginning of his career when he was more willing to criticize conservatives as well as liberals. Now he seems more like a court jester of the conservative establishment. Moore seems to have sold out less than Limbaugh. He’s a little better off now than he was when he made Roger and Me, but he’s hardly the darling of the liberal establishment.

It’s a little hypocritical for a conservative to praise Limbaugh while condemning Moore. Their jobs are being public critics. They have no intention of running for office. Let something else make positive suggestions. Their forte is being negative.

27

[nitpick] didn’t CSN do King Midas in Reverse first? I could be wrong, though. [/nitpick]

Seriously, though. TV Nation did not fail because it had no viewers. It failed because he pissed off the sudios that he worked for. Moreover, while TV Nation was cancelled, as I pointed out, * Roger & Me * is the best-selling documentary of all time. That sure doesn’t sound like failure. His book, * Downsize This! * also sold well. His next movie, * The Big One * did pretty well too.

Sailor: Maybe this is what were getting at–it seems to me that you dislike Moore irrationally. There’s nothing wrong with that; there are plenty of people I dislike irrationaly. It just irks me when you state actual falsehoods about somebody who is really working to make a difference. Is this the case, or do you have a factual fundamental reason to dislike him?

Example:
I dislike Jesse Helms on a rational level:
He opposes equal rights for all people, he has made a public threat to the physical well-being of the President, yet not been prosecuted for it. And so on. These are documented facts.

I dislike Gov Glendenning of MD on an irrational level:
He just seems vaguely creepy, and I get the impression that he chose his Lt Gov simply because she’s a Kennedy and therefore pulls in votes. These aren’t facts, they’re just a bad feeling I get about him.

So which is it sailor?

28

astorian,

If you want us to reply rationally to you, start by being rational yourself. Even if I were to accept all the other things you say about Michael Moore, this statement crosses the line:

> FInally, there’s fat, stupid, talentless Michael Moore.

Where do you get off criticizing him because he’s fat? What do mean stupid? He came from a working-class family and graduated from college. He worked his way up to editor of a magazine. He taught himself to be a filmmaker. And talentless? Look at all the fans he has here. If you don’t like his politics, that’s O.K., but that’s no reason to indulge in these petty slanders.

What do mean that networks have been showering him with money? NBC gave him a show. It did O.K. but not great in the ratings, but it had a big cult following. It was selling overseas well. (It did much better in the U.K.) They cancelled it after a year. Fox picked it up, figuring it would do better on that network, which goes more for niche markets. It did O.K. but not great, and they also cancelled it after a year. Bravo then picked another Michael Moore show, figuring that its even smaller, more niche audience would be the right place for Moore. It seems to be doing well there. At no point was any of these networks taking a huge risk on running a Moore show.

29

Last night I mail Michael Moore and asked him to have a look at this thread and possibly join in. I recieved this reply . I will forward the mail on to anybody who thinks I’m making this up .

BTW , I think it says a lot for the man that he replied to ma at all .

From : MMFlint@aol.com

peter–
i went to the thread. thank you for those very kind words.
i think it’s probably best i don’t jump into the fray, but if you want
some
facts that might clear up a couple things the original poseter said,
here
they are…

  1. TV Nation, when it was on NBC and Fox, came in first place in its
    time
    slot, beating out the other three networks in the key demmographics,
    EVERY
    SINGLE WEEK it was on the air. In fact if you look at the Neilsen
    ratings, to
    this day, no show on Fox has beaten our ratings in our old time slot.
  2. NBC did not cancel TV Nation. In fact, they renewed us. WE chose to
    go to
    Fox because they offered us a chance to do more shows.
  3. In fact, we did LESS shows at Fox. There were so many pieces
    censored
    (most dealing with abortion, gays, or Newt Gingrich) that we gave up
    rather
    than compromise.
  4. TV Nation was nominated as best nonfiction series in the prime time
    Emmy
    Awards both years it was on and we won the Emmy Award for our NBC
    season. It
    also won Europe’s top TV prize, the Rose D’Or at the Montreux Festival
    and we
    also won the one of the top Canadian TV prizes at the Banff Festival.
    The New
    York Daily News said it was the “best show on TV in the last 30
    years.”
  5. The Awful Truth, also nominated for an Emmy Award, also winning the
    Montreux prize this year, increased the ratings for Bravo in our time
    slot by
    50%. The L.A. Times this year said it was “the smartest…funniest
    show on
    television.” We went to Bravo becasue there is no censorship.
  6. Roger & Me became the largest-grossing documentary (non-concert) of
    all
    time. The Big One was the largest grossing documentary for the year it
    was
    released.
    I might be fat and a bit of an idiot at times, but failure is a word
    only the
    good Sisters of St. Joseph are allowed to use when it comes to my
    work!
    Thanks again for writing and for what you said.
    Mike
30

Well, I’m glad he replied to “ma” too, but I think it says even more that he replied to you :smiley:

31

Leave me alone I’m hungover :smiley:

32

In my posts, “Let something else make positive suggestions” should be “Let someone else make positive suggestions”, “What do mean stupid?” should be “What do you mean stupid”, and “Bravo then picked another Michael Moore show” should be “Bravo then picked up another Michael Moore show”. Apparently I’ve completely lost the ability to proofread.

33

McNamara proposed something called “Operation Starlight”, where we would basically recreate Sherman’s March going north through Vietnam. Johnson vetoed it. Not saying it would have worked, just saying that McNamara evidently wasn’t able to do all he might have in the war.

34

Um, for those of us who have never heard of Michael Moore, but think he sounds really, really cool, where can we find out more information on him? I take it his show’s on Bravo - what time?

35

According to http://www.theawfultruth.com the schedule will be the following:

With 12 new episodes, The Awful Truth returns to the air and in an election year even.

You can catch The Awful Truth:
Wednesday on Bravo in the US:
Eastern 10:00 PM & 1:00 AM
Central 9:00 PM & 12:00 AM
Mountain 8:00 PM & 11:00 PM
Pacific 7:00 PM & 10:00 PM
UK - Tuesday on Channel 4 in the 11PM hour
Canada - to be announced

36

Roger & Me and The Big One are his two documentaries, they shouldn’t be too hard to find. Tapes of TV Nation can be found at many video stores (there’s two collections). Downsize This! Random Threats from an Unarmed American should be available at most bookstores. They’re all wonderful.

37

i think most of my argument can be eked out of this on its own. but as to the last sentence, michael moore got his start by getting elected to the school board of flint, MI at the ripe old age of like 17 or 18. in fact, iirc, he’s the youngest person to be elected.

38

Actually, Baa Baa Black Sheep (later known as Black Sheep Squadron) was successful.

39

Yeah, just because it came on after cartoons. So all the Nielsen kids boosted ratings by being too animation-numbed to change the channel.

Or were those reruns?

40

Michael Moore is master of ceremonies of Ralph Nader’s fundraiser in Boston the first of October. Fit that into sucess through failure any way you want.