Now, Bobby Fischer, that’s another story. BTW that was a crack-up in the Pasadena Jail House. 
Sure, but even my most obnoxious comments were nowhere near that self-centered. Of course I’m looking at this in context of her appearence on Good Morning America being canceled as the cause of her comments. Could be wrong, but still.
The following is an opinion:
To me, the fact that a person is a “celebrity” does not lend any more credence to an expressed opinion than if they were somebody I met on the street. Sure, they have the media exposure to spout their views more than most of us.
Does that carry more weight with me? Fuck no! As a matter of fact, it irritates me that some people take the view that such people, by virtue of their celebrity status, are more qualified to speak on “The Big Issues” than us mere mortals.
Ok, actors can tell me about acting, music people can tell me about music, and even chess players can tell me about chess. That is cool, and I will listen and learn.
But I will tell you this, I really do not give a flying ratfuck on what opinion these celebrities have on terrorism, world hunger, Bush v. Gore, paper or plastic, smooth or ribbed, box or soft pack, silk or satin, Hannity or Colmes, Bud or Miller, Britney or Christina, Levis or Wranglers, grunge or metal, hot or cold, boxers or briefs, IMHO or MPSIMS, Bears or Lions,
HBO or Showtime, AMC or TNT, Star Trek vs Star Wars, beans or pasta, red wine or white wine, Lynn or Tuba, latex or enamel, white or black, Stoid or the Evil Right, gay or straight, Christian or Moslem, LA or NYC, Houston or Dallas, cable or DSL, circumcised or uncircumcised, long or short, TOS or TNG, Mac or PC, Linux or Windows, blinds or draperies, trout or bass, carpet or hardwood floors, fords or chevys, and whatever else!
I don’t really care what they think.
Actually, I’d love to know what a few celebs think of me… [sub](Brad Pitt, Jeff Bridges, Anthony Stewart Head, James Marsters…)[/sub]but only after I’ve performed some of my patented Stoidal Sex Magyck[sup]TM[/sup] on them.
My Rabbi will probably give me hell for this, but there are 3 goals in the Jewish conspiracy:
- Control international banking and finance. Not much progress has been made on this front.
- Control Hollywood. Not complete control, but strong inroads have been made.
- Control World Chess championships. We aren’t supposed to talk about this, but if Bobby Fischer is whining we must be doing something right.
Bobby Fischer seems to be a very sad example of a human being.
Hmm. Maybe put Bobby together with that nut Walker who was with the Taliban or Al-Queda. Très bizarre.
Yeah, I will. Bobby’s almost certainly suffering from clinical paranoia, and as such should not be considered fully responsible for his remarks. But, he’s not especially a danger to himself or others, is unwilling or unable to get treated - if, indeed, there’s anything that could be done, so he basically just languishes in his disease. Unfortunately our knowledge of organic mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, paranoia, depression and such is still very rudimentary.
His paranoid behavior was in evidence even back in the early 70’s when he won the World Chess Championship. It’s only gotten worse since. The fact that it’s manifested itself partially by buying into the world Jewish conspiracy crap doesn’t make Bobby any less ill, or any more “human scum”. I feel sorry for the guy myself. To be so gifted in one area, and to have that gift rendered ultimately useless by a disease of the same organ is tragic, really.
I consider Bobby’s streak of twenty consecutive wins during the intra and interzonal competition prior to his match with Boris Spassky to be the single greatest feat in the history of human competition. It’s difficult to comprehend the level he might have reached, had he not been cut down in his prime.
I’m sorry, but by your own words you admit that you have no actual knowledge of whether he is suffering from “clinical paranoia”. And I sincerely doubt you, or anyone else here, has the professional qualifications to diagnose this in absentia.
First, you don’t know if he is “ill” to begin with. Second, you could just as well claim that the entire organization of the Klan is “ill” as well, for believing in the Jewish World Konspiracy that will exterminate us all, and thus deserve your sympathy as well for being “ill”. And thus they deserve our sympathy.
Or you could just chalk them up as human scum as well.
Unless you’ve examined him, which I doubt, I’m at least as qualified to diagnose it as you are to dismiss it. I suspect, though I could be wrong, that I’m more familar with Bobby’s history than you are. Bobby’s bizzare behavior certainly isn’t limited to racist ideology.
More disturbing, though, is your apparent belief that people with mental illnesses with an underlying organic malfunction are “scum”. Once leprosy was understood and treatment became possible, it lost it’s stigma, but people’s understanding of mental illness is still pretty much in the dark ages, and people with no control over their disordered, disturbed thoughts are assumed to merely have a moral deficiency. There are plenty of moral sucm out there (like your KKK bunch), but there are also those who brains are, for one reason or another, not functioning properly, and their symptoms sometimes include “crazy” behavior.
I suppose you’d berate a sufferer of advanced Parkinson’s to “get over it” and show some emotions too, huh? But in spite of the masklike face, Parkinson’s patients do continue to feel the full range of emtion, but their disease prevents the normal physical body language expressions of it. Their patholgoy lies in an area of motor control, not the limbic system. But clearly there are diseases of those parts of the brain that handle emotion, logic, and human interaction, and those with pathologies associated with these areas are no more “scum” than someone with leprosy is “dirty”.
You were the one that started mking suppositions about his mental illness status - not I. I don’t pretend to know what his status is - you are the one who keeps asserting that you should have some idea, based on your being “familiar” with his history. Read the above.
I said that? Where? In what thread? I said about people with mental illness? Or just Fischer? Hello, Reader Rabbit, cleanup in aisle “BBQ”…
First and foremost, I absolutely did not say or even imply that people in general with mental illness with an underlying organic malfunction are “scum”.
Second, I didn’t say that any people in general (other than the Klan) are scum.
You know what I find disturbing? Your lying openly about what I said, when it is clearly posted here for everyone to read.
I was polite in my last response, but your actions go too far now. So fuck you, you piece of shit. I said and implied no such thing whatsoever.
Let’s review the facts, shall we?
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In my first post, I called Fischer “another piece of human scum”. Not people with mental illness, not Parkinson’s patients, not lepers, not one-armed mulatto touch-typists - Fischer? Got it? Probably not, since your reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be very good at all.
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In my second post, I challenged your ability to diagnose Fischer from afar. I also challenged your implication that because he had unorthodox beliefs, that contributed to his “diagnosis in absentia” of being mentally ill. In fact, one could make a supposition that you are a person who is eager to jump and label someone with wildly unorthodox views and actions as “mentally ill”, thus making you a bigot. But then, that would make me an incredible asshole, like yourself.
Now you come in and accuse me of believing mental illness sufferers are scum (liar), and go on to suppose that I would berate Parkinson’s patients and lepers. This, if you haven’t realized it yet in your Cro-Magnon like mind, makes me angry because it is diametrically opposite to my beliefs.
Here’s a challenge to you, although I sincerely doubt you have the honor to accept it - show where I said these things. Or retract them unconditionally. Or, if not, get settled in for the long haul, because when you lie openly like this about what I say or imply I’m not going to let it stand.
That is by far the funnies thing I have seen in the Pit for a very long time.
This is apparently a very emotional issue for you, which is completely understandable. What is not understandable is how you are reacting to Anthracite. Let’s look at this objectively:
- Anthracite is not the only one who in this thread who thinks that Bobby Fischer’s comments were inappropriate, and those of a big, fat jerk.
- She never once implied that it had anything to do with any form of mental illness. How is she (or anybody else for that matter) supposed to know the extent of his illness?
3)As a matter of fact, the only person bringing mental illness into the picture is you, Speleophile. Without any links. How am I, or anybody else, supposed to believe that you know anything about him at all? For all we know, you are making shit up and pulling it out of your ass.
4)And finally, I don’t care what forum you are in, you do not say things like
Because that’s not appropriate for any rant, and it is certainly insensative, and very, very jerk-like.
I strongly suggest that you do this, because Anthracite will be in it for the long haul, and she won’t be alone.
The funny thing is that for some reason I always thought Bobby Fischer was Jewish. You learn something new every day.
Gee, Izzy, thanks, um, I guess.:eek: Maybe I could use this as a new sig…
The link that BF provided has several posters offering the same diagnosis in absentia as Speleophile’s. In fact, if you read this, you’ll probably make the same diagnosis yourself.
Whether you think that he is mentally ill or not, you have to admit that his comments are indefensible.
Preview preview preview!!! Stupid laptop mousepad thingy caused me to overwrite the first part of my post. It should have read:
Read BF’s link to this, where several posters make the same diagnosis in absentia as Speleophile.
Then read this, you’ll probably make the same diagnosis yourself.
Well at least I didn’t say you were scum
[/quote]
This business about diagnosing mental illness “in absentia” is a tempest in a teapot (even leaving aside the issue of who said what). There’s a woman with mental problems who walks past my house every day, and I am quite confident that she is indeed mentally ill despite never having spoken to her (and despite not being a psychologist). If I were to start opining on the exact nature of her mental illness I would be overstepping, but the actual fact of her being nuts is beyond obvious. So too it is with Bobby Fisher - whether his diagnosis is this or that condition is not of concern here - I think it’s rather obvious that he is nuts in some way or other.
The “scum” issue is a more complex one (and perhaps beyond the scope of this thread). No one has suggested (or, likely, would suggest) that someone is scum purely due to mental illness. Where it gets complicated is if the person becomes evil - or does evil - due to mental illness. Was Jeffrey Dahmer scum? (At it’s heart, this might be a question about the scope of free will - in any event, something to think about).
Coldfire, that link didn’t work. It’s too long and wraps with an inserted blank space.
Try this:
article
To me, having read a lot about Fischer, it is clear that he has some mental problems. I am not qualified to diagnose them; however, if you study his life, there is very little doubt. A truly outstanding general biography is Frank Brady’s Profile of a Prodigy. Fischer’s own My Sixty Most Memorable Games may provide some insight as well, especially the introductions to each game by Larry Evans.
Fischer came from a broken home. His father abandoned his family when he was a young child, before he ever knew him. Fischer was essentially taken care of by his sister, Joan, because his mother had to work constantly to make ends meet. His mother also reportedly exhibited signs of mental illness. They moved to New York (from Arizona, I believe) when Bobby was still a young boy. There he learned how to play chess, etc., etc. He constantly had issues with authority in school, eventually dropping out at the age of 16. He was an admirer of Hitler, and developed a rabid anti-Semitism. He also became extremely anti-communist, with the belief that there was a massive conspiracy to prevent him from winning tournaments and achieving the highest levels of chess. Much of this specific belief is actually true.
It was common practice for the Soviets to draw against each other and save their energies for Fischer, or to work towards having one Soviet emerge as the winner. While evidence of throwing games is scant, there have been some excellent articles in Chess Life about, for example, Tal being forced to lose to Bottvinnik by the KGB (Tal was Latvian).
Fischer had numerous nervous breakdowns throughout his erratic career, withdrawing from tournaments and the like. He withdrew from chess completely for a time in the 60s. He joined some fanatical Christian church, which was a drain on his financial resources. He eventually, as is well known, withdrew from chess in '75, forfeiting his world championship match to Karpov. Depending on who you believe, it is quite possible to see serious communist conspiratorial influence in the negotations leading up to this match. FIDE was very much in the control of the Soviet Union for over 30 years.
For more details, read Profile of a Prodigy, and other things about Fischer. While it may not be clear to you right now, if you examine his life in detail, as I have done (it’s a fairly typical thing for an American chessplayer to learn about), I think you will come to the conclusion that while maybe we cannot diagnose exactly what his mental illness(es) is/are in absentia, he probably has some.
Admire his chess games, discard the rest of him.
PS: An article independently confirms that Fischer suffered nervous breakdowns (you can read about this in books too, but you’d have to pay for that ;)), and that such breakdowns can be “schizophrenic episodes.”
His mother was Jewish. She apparently didn’t really practice the religion, though.
I don’t post from work, hence the delay in defending myself here. Things esclate pretty quick here in the pit, don’t they!
Right off the bat, let me say I was defending Bobby Fisher personally, not his nutball opinons, which, whatever their origin, are ludicrious, offensive and just plain ugly.
Now then Anthricite, you wrote…
OK, I’m not a medically trained professional, have never examined Mr. Fischer, and I suspect from an organic perspective paranoia may be impossible to diagnose absolutely. Unlike leukemia or massive strokes, there’s no test that says, “Here’s the damage, here’s what’s not functioning properly” But, by which of my “own words” did I admit I had no knowledge of Fisher’s condition? I’ve never exaimed Stephen Hawking either, but anyone familiar with his progression of symptoms and some knowledge of ALS would have little difficulty making a pretty damn good guess what his problem was. The only really unusual thing in his case is how long he’s managed to live with the disease. In a similar vein, it’s not to hard to make a diagnosis in Fischer’s case.
I assumeded knowldege of Bobby’s bizzare behavior was more common than it appears to be, judging from this MB. But, I grew up as the son of a chess nut, so when I tossed out the observation that Bobby’s almost certainly out-of-his-mind-bonkers, more or less, I was repeating stuff I figured most people already knew. My mistake. I did a quick search of the web, and there’s not a lot on Bobby’s personal life, partly because he’s a recluse, and also because he’s living out of the country. However, Pepperlandgirl is correct for calling on me to provide some links, so here goes.
Exhibit One
This is an interview with Bobby on Jan 27, 1999, and is not for the faint of heart. Bobby goes on and on about the “giant conspiracy of the Jewish world government”, and it goes downhill, WAY downhill, from there. But there is one obvious thread here you don’t see on Christian Identity or other such hate sites - Bobby’s fear and lothing of the “Jewish conspiracy” isn’t restricted to, or even primarily about their taking over the world, but their attacks on him personally. Did I say paranoia? How about a little meglomania as well. I mean, what the hell has any take-over-the-world group got to fear from Bobby Fischer, anyway?
Exhibit Two
“…Chess player Bobby Fischer had all of his fillings removed before an important match because he believed that the fillings contained electronic devices…”
Exhibit Three - Fischer vs. Spassky - The Chess Match of the Century
This book details some of the paranoid behavior of Fisher leading up to the 1972 World Chess Championship.
After the '72 match, Bobby became even more withdrawn, got involved in the World Church of God, essentially disappeared, and then delved into his anti-semitic ravings.
I’m hardly the first person to suppose Bobby’s not all there.
So, when this thread came up concerning Bobby’s nutball comments about the WTC bombing, I wanted to point out that Bobby’s hateful attitudes were likely the symptoms of a deeper problem, and he might not be fully accountable for them (unlike say, David Duke or that guy from the World Church of the Creator, I’ve happily forgotten his name)
I though my original post was rather reasoned in tone and I certainly didn’t come to the defense of his views. I was repeating an opinion (that Fisher suffers from some degree of mental illness) that certainly isn’t original with me. After dismissing my assessment of his mental stability, you went on about the Klan, writing…
[quote]
Or you could just chalk them up as human scum as well.
[quote]
(my empahsis) “As well” as Bobby Fischer, that certainly seems to state, and in fact as you earlier noted in your earlier post. I pointed out (without cite, I’ll admit) that Bobby’s paranoid behavior predated his Jewish idiocy, so I think I was justified in construing your closing remarks as indicating that Bobby was scum because of his Jewish Conspiracy beliefs irrespective of whether or not they are driven by his deeper general paranoia.
You wrote
This sure as hell sounds to me like you’re making the assumption that the only criteria I’m using to judge Bobby’s mental state is his anit-semitic ravings, when I clearly stated otherwise, and that any mental illness, if it existed, did not excuse him from culpability for his beliefs. From that it’s a very small step to saying a Parkinson’s patient is equally culpable for their inability to express emotion. Had you challenged me to provide sources for my statement …
… which Pepperlandgirl did, that would be a valid criticism, which I’ve tried to address somewhat here.