Body Scanners and Privacy

Great Debates
1

I am personally pretty horrified by body scanners. The detail that you can see is… well it’s basically looking at a perfectly naked photo of someone albeit blue or gray.

It really makes me uncomfortable thinking about me or my girlfriend going to the airport now that my airport has one.

What all is involved. Does everyone have to be screened or do they do it randomly or by profiling.

Who looks at the scanner, someone of the same sex. Is the person a specialist at detecting bombs or just some dope they put into a uniform.

We often say these sort of people are professionals and by that I guess we mean they don’t get any real pleasure from seeing people naked, but my friend’s dad is a doctor who has admitted that at least on one occasion he had a girl get naked during a physical when it wasn’t necessary because he thought she was hot. I’m not lying. He is a pervert with a massive porn collection. When we were 12 I saw my first porn because my friend had snuck it out of his room… sigh. I don’t even want to start on about the cops I know… one who exchanged a BJ for not busting a high school girl for marijuana possession.

Anyway, I don’t buy into the ‘they see it all the time so it doesn’t get them off’ spiel. If that was true the porn industry wouldn’t be profitable. perverts watch porn all the time and i am sure they still enjoy it.

There is no difference between the professionals and me other than they get paid to do what they do. Not saying all of them are perverts, but I would say that human beings (especially male) have a tendency towards perversion.

So I find it pretty outrageous that some pervert could be checking out my girlfriend in the buff just because she needs to visit her parents in California .

I actually have seen some of the images and found that it doesn’t seem to show genitalia or nipples in some pictures (in others they are clearly visible and well defined… no hair gets picked up by the scanners of course so you can see every detail down there). I sent an E-mail to the website I found those pics on and they told me straight out that they had been censored and that normally you can see every detail. More shockingly they told me that the pics on the internet don’t show the abilities to zoom and enhance.

Some more questions:

What will these things will pick up. Would they have been able to detect the bomb under that guys genitals who recently tried to blow up a plane?

How does it work? what is invisible to the scanner and what is visible. Obviously hair is not visible, flesh is… and it seems belts are usually visible.

Are there any worries about the radiation it causes?

How are these legal? Shouldn’t privacy laws ban them? Is it voluntary? Will declining raise an alarm and have you stripped searched by some FBI agent?

2

I’m not horrified, but yeah…they can see just about every detail. AFAIK, they use software to, well, hide I guess, the nasty bits, but if they turn the software off they could pretty much see all the details.

I would guess it varies, depending on where it’s been deployed. I don’t think they run everyone through something like this, no…so, there must be some kind of selection process to see who goes through this, and who goes through a regular scanner.

Ah…like that is it? :stuck_out_tongue: I don’t think that they search specifically for bombs under genitalia from guys who tried to blow up a plane last Tuesday (at 9am, EST), no. They can probably detect weapons or explosives hiding under the nasty bits though, yeah…depending on the, er, size and, um, girth. Was that what you were looking for?

I don’t know the details on all the units, but I highly doubt it (they would have tested for this, ehe?)…from what I recall they actually use ultra-sound or a similar technology, not x-rays.

They are legal in the same way that metal detectors are legal, or that a pat down is legal, at a guess. You don’t HAVE to go through one…assuming you don’t wish to fly on the plane in question. It’s your choice…they aren’t going to wheel the thing out to your house or something and force you to go through at gun point.

If you refuse, I would guess, they will probably take you into custody to see WHY you refused…or, perhaps they will tell you that you can refuse all you like, but by the same token they can refuse to let you board your flight. Again, it would be your choice…depends on how badly you want to get on that airplane, I suppose.

As for privacy laws, I don’t think they come into the discussion in this case. The REAL debate is whether we should have the things at all. A good case can be made that some level of risk is just part of life, and that folks just need to deal with the fact that sometimes life sucks and things go tits up. C’est la vie, and all that. The other side of things is that people WANT to feel safe and protected…and this technology can help (nothing is 100%) to lower the probability (already ridiculously low, IMHO) of a hijack or bomb.

I’m not sure where I stand on the real debate, honestly…though probably more on the side of ‘you pays your money and takes your chances’ than on the ‘PROTECT ME!’ side, all things considered.

-XT

3

“Last week we had an opening for an x-ray scanner operator. I’m not shitting you, we received about 12,000 applications. In the end we just gave the job to the first lucky applicant we picked out of a sack,” a senior security expert told X-Ray Weekly magazine."

From an article entitled: “Celebrity Full Body Scanner Porn Hits Internet”

Makes me sick to my stomach.

4

Sort of makes me chuckle…I mean, The Daily Squib? That’s on par with Bat Boy being used to look for Weapons of Mass Destruction and search for Saddam and Elvis in Detroit…

(ETA: Check this out. Too funny!)

-XT

5

As explained to me by the woman who was manning the scanner at YVR a few weeks ago, no one on the floor sees the image. It is sent to a security room to a person who you never see who also never sees you. Just your image. I had the choice to either get the scan or the patdown, and I figured the scan would take less time. It did. I never saw the picture, not once, neither did anyone else on the floor. The light just turned green after a few seconds and the security guard told me to collect my things and continue.

In that no one touched me at all, I found it far less invasive then the traditional patdown.

6

Yeah, but did they take you to the Moon Landing Warehouse?? Plus…the things are actually GOOD for you!

-XT

7

Yeah but it doesn’t seem far from the truth does it?

I wasn’t really sure if they were reputable or not… if they say used real news as satire or were completely fake.

Still I have found a registered website called:

bodyscannerporn.com

Also from another article:

“However, the Transport Secretary’s assurances were demolished after it was revealed on the BBC’s Jonathan Ross show Friday that Indian actor Shahrukh Khan had passed through a body scan and later had the image of his naked body printed out and circulated by Heathrow security staff.”

8

Your evidence for all this is kind of thin…to put it gently. bodyscannerporn.com? I see one supposed image that could have been taken (or doctored) using just about anything. One image…kind of disappointing, honest. As for your quote, you didn’t link to the article. A google search of the string turns up mostly cites of a dubious nature, though I haven’t really read through them extensively. If you are going to quote something then please provide the link, so we can judge the comment in context.

Even if it were true it just means the system is subject to abuse…not that such abuse is the norm or even wide spread. My guess is that, unless you are a ‘Film Star’ you probably don’t have much to worry about. I seriously doubt that the security staff is going to be avidly looking at my old brown carcass, or posting it on any web sites…nor do I think that in 99% of the cases this is a likely outcome, regardless of how good one looks.

My advice is…don’t fret. Oh, and stop going to Daily Squib for serious information…it’s like going to the Onion for research.

-XT

9

Is it the same system everywhere?

Second, the person in the control room does see you. If you’ve seen any of the body scan images you can see that they can see you VERY well actually. I highly doubt they hide the face, and even if they did it still seems invasive.

Sure patting down is invasive too. But there is a big difference for me between someone lightly patting your legs, thigs and torso… and seeing the full monty.

I guess you could say either you get felt up by a stranger or you get naked in front of a stranger.’ I just think the pat down (I’ve been through one) is a little less humiliating than being naked… but I guess it depends on the person.

Not sure if you are male or female… I tend to think the males would have a harder time allowing their spouse to be seen by another male naked. Even if they hid your face… I know it probably sounds a bit misogynistic, but I really don’t want someone looking at my girl’s naughty bits :\

10

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/bollywood/7203872/Airport-denies-body-scanner-photo-claim-by-Bollywood-star-Shahrukh-Khan.html

11

It’s not doctored.

It is actually one of the demos they did.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/january2010/080110top.jpg

I was just saying that if someone is registering this site, it’s only a matter of time before it becomes a regular fetish.

Will most of it be faked? Probably. But there is always some genuine stuff among the fake stuff. Look at other voyeur sites.

12

I guess my point is… even if that Bollywood actor made up the story for a few laughs… IT WILL HAPPEN.

It would be so easy to take a digital camera to get a shot of it. It’s going to happen eventually… and I doubt you would have to be a star to have it happen to you.

Like I said voyeurism sites do have some real stuff. Either cams hidden in bathrooms, changing rooms… etc. The images from these scanners though are much better than some shitty webcam/security cam someone rigged up at a poor viewing angle. These images will leak sooner or later.

13

Even if that’s the case (and you know this how, exactly? I’ve seen several versions of this picture, and some of them are obviously doctored), I note that a google search basically turns up this one picture over and over again. What does that suggest to you?

Yeah…and? I already acknowledged that the system COULD very well see very intimate details. However, the process they are using it under is going to preclude most abuse of the system. MOST abuse. But, like anything, some people will invariably abuse the system…and when they are caught it will be like a ton of bricks falling on them. Which is going to further mitigate abuse.

The picture you link too is one of those that are, IMHO, pretty obviously doctored btw. There are several versions that don’t show either the detail or the skin tones, for instance.

Uhuh…and yet I am not finding very many actual images, and all of the ones I’ve seen so far (3 different people btw) are all from demos or early versions of the system. I, again, acknowledge that such a system is open to abuse…but then a lot of things are. Myself, I’m not going to fret about it.

Also, you might want to consider that, unless you frequently travel out of the country (assuming you are an American), the chances of you running into one of these machines is pretty low. IIRC, so far there are like 3 in the US, and all of them are used for overseas flights. If you travel a lot in Europe, admittedly, you might run across one more frequently.

I haven’t seen much more than the basic 3 images that are obviously tests and early demos. Perhaps you could provide a link to these other supposed sites?

I’m not going to bother with your YouTube link, but you do realize that this article is both from a questionable source AND pure anecdote…right?

-XT

14

There is some legal question of their use with children (at least in the UK). Pedophilia via body scanners I guess.

Personally I do not understand why people get so fussed about this. As long as they do not snap the photos and post them on the web why should anyone care? Guys pee next to each other all the time. People walk around locker rooms naked. People strip for their doctor. Think of what women go through with a gyno exam fer crissake. The pictures are not exactly detailed or even titillating anyway. Do people think the TSA guy watching the screen is masturbating furiously to all the scanner porno?

Have women screeners for women and men for men and that should be plenty. If you still do not like it then do not fly. It is not a right and no one is making you. Take a train or a boat.

15

Umm how is it doctored?

Because they took a negative image and inverted it?

When the scanner takes the picture it is usually a blue hue. It’s not a true negative, but the point of inverting it was to show what perverts could do to get a basic nude photo of someone.

here is the source of the image:

You know it’s okay to be skeptic, but don’t accuse people of just fabricating something.

Obviously it’s easy to make something that looks like the real deal fairly easily. I could make something in photoshop that you would never be able to tell was doctored.

16

Okay. First, the point is there WILL be leaked photos of people on the internet. how exactly you prevent that is beyond me.

I find that terminal systems like these are usually very insecure because the idea is that only the operator will use them, so I wouldn’t be surprised if you would be able to use PrintScreen to get a screen shot. But most likely methods like that won’t be used. It will be someone who brings their phone in and takes a snap shot.

The problem is you people are just thinking about yourselves and how you feel about your own body. What about yours kids or someone else’s kids. Your wife? These are people you usually don’t want some pervert jacking it to when they get home with their cellphone pic they took of the screen.

Yeah for myself… honestly I don’t have much of a problem with it. For my little sisters who are 8 and 9? No way. For my girlfriend… It’s not up to me, but I would prefer she didn’t.

Yeah there aren’t a lot of body scanners in the US… and there are more than 3 last I checked, but eventually these will be in every airport. Unless the public gets informed quickly.

17

Will you please re-read what I said… I said OTHER VOYEUR sites. I didn’t say OTHER BODY SCAN sites. I meant that voyeur porn is already very popular and some of it is real.

Is there any Body Scan porn out there? Not really. But there will be.

18

Photoshop springs to mind, actually.

And added details, skin tone, etc.

Yet you have singularly yet to produce any evidence that this is widely being done. In fact, you keep showing the same picture over and over again as if this proves something.

No, I don’t believe that’s the source. It’s just another cite (of, again, dubious worth) that is showing the image.

I didn’t say the image was fabricated…I said that the image you in the one link was obviously DOCTORED. There is a distinct difference. I don’t believe you are really tracking well on my argument, frankly.

Yeah…that’s kind of the point. I could take an image of you from a decent security camera and doctor it to show anything I want to show. And I could have done this for quite a long time now. So what?
Bottom line is, if you don’t like the things then don’t fly. Personally, I think you are getting all worked up over a whole lot of nothing. Why do I think that? Because the only ‘evidence’ you’ve shown so far consists of the same image of the same woman (depicted differently each time), along with a cite that is obviously anecdotal, along with a lot of speculation and frantic worry that doesn’t seem to have any real basis in fact. Where is you EVIDENCE that these systems are being abused on any kind of scale? At this point tens of thousands of people have probably gone through the things…so, where are the thousands or even hundreds of DIFFERENT pictures of these people? As opposed to the same skinny little white girl shown over and over again? Or the chubby woman or fat guy? That’s 3…where are the other several hundred or several thousand? For that matter, where are the pictures of the Indian star from your other link? He SAYS the pictures exist (though he was unavailable for comment later in the article, I note with some irony), but where are they? I can send you a link to OTHER stars who have been caught in the nude (or filmed doing the nasty for that matter), so where are the pictures of this guy?

-XT

19

Okay on the one side:

  • Hundreds of people falling out of the sky to their death.

On the other side:

  • Oh noes, naked people!
20

Should be fairly easy to link to them then, no? So…show…me.

And we might invade Iran next week, or be taken over by brain sucking aliens. The thing is, you don’t seem to have any more evidence for your assertions than there is evidence for the Iran invasion or brain sucking aliens thingy. These things have been out for quite a while now, after all, especially in Europe…so, where is the Body Scan Porn?

-XT