Bombing Iraq (another debate - slightly different actually)

Just received this email from a friend who failed to get a(admittedly poor) joke in response to an email requesting me to sign some petition to send to the UN. Frankly, however, this email annoys me and I am looking to beef up a very extended response that I have just composed. Does anyone care to join in this debate and help me out? By the way, my response to the original email was simply, “Utter drivel. I think we should bomb the life out of them” (this is NOT a view that I hold with any conviction and may have been a little off-hand - I don’t think it deserved this response)

I suppose you think your funny quicken, or worse intelligent. Its people like you who are the problem. Its so ignorant what you have just said. I am sure you know that the second largest oil reserves in the world after Saudi Arabia are in Iraq, and that the two of the three largest sectors of the American economy (which is on the verge of its severest recession since 1929) are the Oil and Gas sector and now Military Equipment if you think this war is to do with our protection and is the sensible policy you are just your average idiot. If we attack Iraq there will be more problems than before. The Islaamic peasant majority From Pakistan through to Morocco and Algeria already hate Europe and North America. Due to everything from hard core pornography ( by the way wal-mart the largest retailer in the world (which incidentally owns Asda) sells G-Strings for 3-4 year olds and have gun counters next door to the toy sections ) through to the fact that westerners have such a greedy and unhealthy society that 1 in 3 people in the US are obese and 1 in 5 in Europe, while poeple almost a billion people across the world are malnourished.

We think we are perfect (or at least people like you entertain such an air of arrogance that it would seem that the problem is always the fault of other cultures and their social policies ). Dont forget that as per usual this is US born fuck up, in that they we willing to install and support Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war as it was convenient then and did not give to hoots about the situation of the Iraqi people, as the 12 year trade embargo which has hindered any social or economic development and has caused mass food shortages in Iraq which Saddam has been blamed for, until in 1990 when their lucrative oil exrtaction and refinery contacts were threatened in Kuwait. Its has been well documented that Donald Rumsfeld even sold Saddam Military equipment until 1988-9 because thats his business and it still is. Now his client is the US tax payer and he and his peers are making more ill earned money than ever. As Cheney, Bush Jr. and Sr. will be with all their oil cronies when they have a new friendly, convenient, and corrupt regime that will conceede them all the oil contracts they can dream of. And as usual the profits of someone else’s resources will go into western pockets.

The Royal Family of Saudi Arabia already hated by the fundamentalist (majority of saudis) and could easily fall over night like the Tzaars of Russia, due to their oppulence and collaboration with the US. Saudi Arabia is the capital of the Islaamic world and the regime there what ever it may be sets the message for the people of Syria, Iran, Palestine, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Eygpt, the Sudan, and Ethiopia along with a whole host of other very poor and volatile muslim nations which are reaching boiling point with us.

My suggestion is that we dont go to war tomorrow and although I agree things are not stisfactory and can not be left alone the way to solve these problems surely would be to work peacefully with these countries and hear what they hate about us and how we might compromise or share the benefits.

Before you put up your defensive hippy or idiot defensive denial comment in your head that has probably already surfaced. I am jewish as you know, I have family in America, although I am English and work in Finance as you do and even have some experience of the inside of what you might consider to be a conspiracy world I have described above. Lets not all be sheep, like our pathetic and career minded prime minister Tony Blair (who would not mind a presidency of his own) and start acting with both our hearts and our heads not just our penises.

I’d say - “Really? that’s interesting. Now leave me alone while I get fat and watch porn”

Your friend is wrong about so many things, quicken78 one doesn’t know where to start. And, I suspect, s/he won’t pay attention to any corrections you offer. Since I have time to kill, I will nevertheless point out some things that are wrong in the e-mail.

No, Saddam Hussein is the problem. He’s an evil tyrant. He tortures and murders his own people. He attacks his neighbors. He has chemical and biological weapons. Given a chance, he’ll build a nuclear arsenal.

I thought health care and agriculture were the two largest segments of the economy. And, who said we’re on the verge of another 1929?

That’s what they said before we attacked Afghanistan, but just the reverse occurred.

So, we have nothing to lose from a Public Relations POV. However, even if a successful attack doesn’t make them like us, it may lead them to respect us more than they do.

We did not install Saddam, although we did support his side during the Iran-Iraq war. If we were unconcerned about the Iraqi people then, should we not make up for it by being concerned enough now to take the lead in overthrowing the fascist government which oppresses them?

Enough if this. I’m getting bored, and your friend won’t believe it anyhow. Maybe you need some new friends.:wink:

-Or maybe just smoke some of that fine new crop of Afghani heroin.

Afghan drug crops up despite curbs :wink:

Squink, you omitted part of that quote.

Production was way down in 2000 thanks to a bloody civil war. Would you recommend a permanent state of horrendous war as a means of holding down opium production?

You’ve caught me december :eek: !
Actually, I just thought that your claim about there being fewer problems in Afghanistan now than before the liberation needed a little tempering. It’s not a big deal, but Afghanistan is far from trouble-free these days. If anyone cares, they can read the entire article.

"the fact that westerners have such a greedy and unhealthy society that 1 in 3 people in the US are obese and 1 in 5 in Europe, while poeple almost a billion people across the world are malnourished. "
ohhh…
I always thought it was because we have delicious food, and they eat crickets.

I’ve always found the ‘we created him’ line to be intresting (and have heard the same line concerning Bin Laden come to think of it).

Now… it’s going too far to say we installed Saddam but you could say that by overlooking certain behaviors when we needed his friendship and he appeared to be less of a threat that we might have gave him the mistaken idea he could get away with doing something drastic (taking over Kuwait). So there is an argument for saying we created this monster.

The logical fallicy is to use this to say we shouldn’t do anything about… indeed… don’t have the right to. Bull. If saying ‘we caused it’ proves anything at all… it’s that we have a responsiblity to fix things.
In general I’m rather against US foreign policy towards Iraq… but if I’m to believe we caused it (and parts of me do) then why shouldn’t it follow we should try to fix it?

I haven’t met a Jewish person yet who hasn’t been rightfully enraged that SH rewards the families of suicide bombers, and some of them are self-proclaimed bleeding hearts. Just thought that was odd, with the “work peacefully with these countries and hear what they hate about us and how we might compromise or share the benefits.” What they hate about us might be something as enlightened and intelligent as “You are Evil, and you’re also run by the Jews.” I can just imagine the compromises in that case. We may get more rational responses from the more modernized ~ who, I understand, are also at odds with the fundamentalists and the more strict Muslim societies. No help there.

I think it’s very odd that some Europeans condemn our supposed prejudices on one hand (*it would seem that the problem is always the fault of other cultures and their social policies *) and on the other, use the example of fund. Muslims’ hatred of this or that as a good reason for not doing something.

Ouch! That’s gotta sting.

I don’t follow, Michael.

If december posted a chopped up and misleading quote like that then a dozen people would hop in here and request that he be banned. He’s got every right to call Squink on it.

I agree with Debaser.

december’s counter-point was entirely valid and appropriate. And Squink admitted it, as far as I can tell.

Just like it should be in GD.

Regards,
Shodan

It sure was. Of course that still doesn’t entirely remove the tarnish from his initial claim that things have gotten much better in Afghanistan. That’d require a whole nother debate, which I’m not sure is worth having just now. Maybe it will be after Wolfowitz makes his recommendations:U.S. Defense Chiefs Press for Afghan Aid, but not in this thread.

Where did december claim that things have gotten much better in Afghanistan?

What was claimed in the OP was:

I took that as a claim that terrorist attacks against the US would increase as the result of action against Iraq. december pointed out that they have not increased as a result of the US action against the terrorist camps in Afghanistan.

I took the reference to be to hostility against the US, not that things were all beer and skittles in Afghanistan now that the Taliban is toast.

Regards,
Shodan

It’s not at all clear whether he was refering to conditions inside Afghanistan, or some undocumented decline in terrorist actions against US interests in the past year. You may have intuited his meaning correctly, or not. Either way, he still needs to provide evidence to back up his claim.