Just to the general racist nature of sportswriters. Look how they will describe black players as being “well-spoken”. As if a black player that can string together two sentences is something they can hardly believe. White players are never described as “well-spoken”.
Good one, Chris Rock! How about you drop this “they” shit and find me a couple of columns where a sportswriter actually calls a black athlete “well-spoken.”
Well, a quick Google search turns up the following people in baseball refered to as “well-spoken:”
Damon, Cobb, Puckett, Matheny, Allison, Rider, Bonds, Ault, Hubbard, Verducci (first 10)
How many are black?
Marley23, if you ignore Jebus’ useless posts, there really is a good discussion going on, no thanks to his worthless OP.
I’ve never been any good at that, D_Odds.
Of the players I can identify on that list- Kirby Puckett and Barry Bonds were/are black (Puckett is dead), and Ty Cobb, Doug Ault, Mike Matheny are/were white (Ault and Cobb are dead). Johnny Damon is probably thought of as white, but to be picky he’s half Thai. “Hubbard” could be Trenidad Hubbard, who is black, but it could be a few other people. If “Rider” is former NBA player Isaiah Rider, then he’s black, and if “Allison” is former pitcher Dana Allison, he’s white. Verducci would appear to be the Sports Illustrated writer.
The Op is an idiot in presentation, but there is of course more than a grain of truth. Some dislike for Bonds is racism, most is just Barry Bonds being a king size jerk and cheat.
There was a famous (white) baseball player who was universally hated during his career. Even the hometown fans didn’t like him. He was surly and hostile to press and fans. Now I am stretching my memory. “He didn’t learn to say hello until it was time to say good bye” was said about Ted Williams. The younger Barry reminded me of Ted Williams and I respected him for what he was.
Bonds lost all respect in my eye when he turned into the Steroid Hulk. So for me Bonds went for the active player I respected most for ability to a pariah.
Jim
You’re a Guest here, so perhaps you haven’t seen enough to realize how badly this wounds any credibility you might have had left.
It doesn’t matter if you OP a thread or not. You do not instruct other Dopers on what a thread is or is not about, and try to stifle someone else’s words by doing so. It’s really poor form around here, and it might be great if you could try not to do that, ok?
If someone is badly hijacking, we have a crackerjack team of Moderators and Admins around to guide the misguided back onto the Path. 
Oh, and you’re full of shit. Bonds is the very personification of what is wrong with professional sports today. Doesn’t mean shit, the color of his skin.
Cartooniverse
I was a big fan of Sammy Sosa’s for a while, and I can tell you that he caused his own problems. Cubs fans were behind him 100% until it started seeming as if he cared more about himself, and how many home runs he hit, than he cared about winning or about the fans. As I’m sure is the case in other cities, Chicago embraces players who PLAY BASEBALL, not just hit home runs…players who show a love for the game, who give 100% every day, and who appreciate the devoted fans. I can assure you it doesn’t matter what color they are. And the greater the player is, the more fans appreciate a little humility and appreciation. If Bonds spent one minute thinking of the fans, who pay his salary, rather than himself, it might be a very different story.
Are the accomplishments of the amphetamine poppers “suspect”? No one’s clamoring to keep them out. How about those that used surgery to improve themselves? Are their accomplishments “suspect”? What about Gaylord Perry? Aren’t all his accomplishments “suspect”?
I figure if Gaylord Perry/greenie eaters/bat corkers are allowed in, there’s no real reason to keep out someone who was susprected of using steroids.
People keep acting as if there’s some substantive difference between a steroid user and, say, Gaylord Perry, but I’m not seeing it. Smacks of a double standard.
With Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford and many others you are speaking of the baseball art of doctoring the ball for better movement. While illegal, it is an accepted part of baseball and to some extent honored. I think that if you fail to understand this, you might not really understand baseball.
The Benny use has been endemic since at least the 70’s and I would not be surprised if it is much older. While not a cherished form of cheating, it seems to have been accepted, as it did not make players play better, but just play at their top form more consistently. The Old Timers use to live of coffee and cigarettes to get a similar effect as the bennies provide. Personally, I hope they do crack down on Bennies and HGH soon.
Cork bats are cheating and a bad form of cheating. If Graig Nettles was a borderline Hall of Famer, it would probably lose him votes.
By the way, please tell me a known bat corker that is in the Hall of Fame. I cannot think of one.
Steroids are where, players, fans and the press have drawn the line. It was already enforced in most others sports. Apparently, the collective will is we do not want are ball players to be steroid enhanced freaks.
Jim
That’s a cheap shot. People can have just as good a grasp of baseball as you and come to completely different conclusions.
Well, it is. You’re right. There’s a lot of rationalization going on, to the point where it’s only considered cheating if you get caught.
Players who were generally liked and even admired, despite known or probable cheating, do get the benefit of that rationalization, or at least whitewashing. Gaylord Perry was a likeable guy so his sins are forgiven. Jose Canseco, the first truly blatant juicer as well as the guy who blew the lid off the problem, was not at all likeable so his 400+ HR’s are easily discounted. If he had been liked and admired, steroid use by him and other players might not be considered unforgiveable. If Bonds (and Sosa) weren’t such pricks, there might not be a public-perception issue with steroids today.
By the same token, I suspect the home run season and career records are considered so important in large part because they were made so prominent by as liked and admired a player as there ever was.
How does Rafael Palmeiro fit into your analysis? He was, I believe, pretty widely liked and admired by fans. Most people I know were deeply disappointed when he flunked the drug test, and have definitely not whitewashed or forgiven it.
Most of the old retired veterans speak of doctoring the ball and stealing signs as part of the game. They are woven into baseball lore.
**Is what I just said not true? **
You are right it does sound like a cheap shot, but I honestly think if you don’t know and study baseball history, you might not understand that Gaylord Perry is just another in a long line of pitchers who was able to hide the fact he doctored the baseball and was respected for his ability to do so.
So Yookeroo I will apologize for the way I phrase my statement but not for the actual content. I do not believe you are overly familiar with the history of the game if you are worried about Gaylord Perry doctoring the ball. Do you consider yourself a student of the game or just a fan or casual observer?
BTW: Why am I apologizing for a barely offensive statement in the pit?
Jim
Until he tested dirty, that is. If he’d shut up like McGwire instead of testifying under oath, on TV, that he’d never used despite Canseco’s claim, his image might still be whitewashable. I don’t think he was ever going to make the Hall anyway, though, not ever having been a dominant player on the field.
Instead, his dirty test and his guilty reaction to it gave Canseco’s story complete credibility. Before that, his assertion that he knew Palmeiro juiced was balanced by Palmeiro not ever having a juicer’s body. That had made everything else Canseco said dismissable, on the grounds that he’s a jerk, not that bright, and out for money. But no longer.
Instead of being able to hold onto the idea that the problem is confined to only a few Hans-und-Franz-looking guys who can be purged from the public eye in disgrace, Palmeiro’s juicing has forced us to recognize that the situation could be and probably is very widespread. MLB has resisted allowing that to be investigated until just recently, but if the Mitchell panel comes up with a lot of other names, Palmeiro just might get some degree of redemption as being simply a guy who got caught early.
If you get caught and no one can spin your cheating as whimsical with funny little video clips of files falling out of your pocket on the mound or superballs exploding out of your bat. Then it’s just wacky on-field antics!
All hopped up on amphetamines? Well, that doesn’t help you play baseball, it just helps you play better for longer. In what world does this make sense?
Palmeiro getting caught was a shocker, and I can remember shouting “You dumbass!” at the TV when I heard about it. He would have been in the Hall, with only a minor controversy as to his peak value versus his longevity. And then he goes and hands people a reason to keep him out. Stupid.
I think the difference between Palmeiro and Bonds (in addition to the issues of Bonds being the more prominent player) is that Palmeiro is likeable. So, people don’t want to believe that he is a cheater. The sentiment in his case in more disappointment in the man than anger. Giambi probably falls into this category as well.
Bonds, on the other hand, is an ass. So people have no trouble reveling in his scandal.
The way Tim Raines and a few others have explained Bennies is that the season is very long. Players need pick me ups, especially in day after night games and after long trips.
What I said is not quite what you said.
I then added the reminded that bennies replaced Coffee and nicotine.
Lastly, was my fervent hope that Baseball would do away with Bennies. I was not defending the practice, just trying to explain it.
Jim
Where does this idea that, since there’s always been cheating, cheating is OK, come from, anyway? And who says I think Gaylord Perry should be in the HOF if he cheated? If he won a game with a greaseball, I’d vote to disqualify it. That means he’d never make the cut. I’d have no problem whatsoever retroactively ejecting him from the Hall, and I don’t give a crap how affable he appears. He’s a cheater. Pete Rose can stay in his prison without bars, as far as I’m concerned. Toss the lot of 'em.
About 90%* of the reason I don’t watch pro sports much anymore (I was a ravenous consumer when I was a kid) is because the quaint idea of watching a talented athelete compete against other talented atheletes defined pro sports in my mind. Little did I suspect, in my naïve youth, that pro sports is a drug-enhanced sham brimming with cheats, whose purported oustanding excellence is no more than a function of how many foreign substances they utilize, and how often, before they get caught (or not). What the Hell am I watching when I go to a pro game? Who has the talent, who is a well-designed cyborg, and who’s a mix of both? Who should I admire? Where’s the fun in this anymore? Is this nothing but a collection of junkies, corkers, and spitballers? How many games were fixed? Did that pitcher mean to bean him? Boy that ump made a funny call…what’s in his wallet? Etc. We’re figuring out pro sports is a crock. Maybe the WWF is more honest. At least we all know they’re all clowns.
*The mercenary sensibilities of your average Johnny Damon make up the balance. There’s really little point in “team allegance”. “Teams” are little more than personnel rosters with a regular turnover rate. The uniform means little, the town even less. I know you’re thinking “no kidding, idiot”, but I don’t think the average kid truly appreciates this, nor does the big business of pro sports encourage an unvarnished assesment of team fandom. I had fun with the BoSox finally winning a series, but after that reality encroached once again.
You are crying over the Red Sox free agent Johnny Damon leaving for more green after the Red Sox bought him in free agency away from the A’s who traded for him for KC. Sounds like sour grapes and I don’t even understand why. Boston ownership was looking to replace him before the season even ended last year. Loyalty is suppose to be a two-way street. Do you want back the days of Owner domination over the players?