boo hoo. i'm rich and have to pay thirty seven percent in taxes.

Needs2Know said:

My federal taxes don’t bother me as much as the sales taxes that I pay everyday. They also vary from city to county to city.

The reason that these taxes vary so widely is that this is the primary source of revenue for local and state governments, which all have different programs to fund. Get rid of those taxes and you either have to get rid of the programs or institute another type of tax to take over the burden.

Some argue that the sales tax is the fairest tax of all, because it is purely a measure of spending power. The rich buy far more than the poor, thus pay more taxes overall. Occasionally I have heard people proposing abolishing all taxes and instituting a national sales tax.

Phalis…I really don’t complain about taxes at all. I know that local sales taxes go to local inititaves. I really never do see what all the fuss is about when it comes to taxes. Like I said before I’ve always felt like I get a lot for my money. As for part of my taxes going to federally funded housing, etc. I don’t worry about that either. I figure I’m just a few paychecks away from the same situation so I don’t mind helping someone that needs it. I just don’t share in the philosophy that the majority of the poor and needy are just a bunch of lazy bums. It doesn’t even bother me that some of them might be. I also contribute to charitable organizations and don’t bother with my meager contributions at tax time.

It reminds me a little of something like…I see a woman broken down on the side of the road. I stop to help. Perhaps give her a ride to the gas station. She tries to repay me. I tell her never mind, I consider it good karma. If I ever find myself in need hopefully someone will do the same for me. I know it’s a little naive and idealistic but hey…sue me! I’d rather be like this than jaded and disolutioned. Funny too how I live from pay check to pay check pretty much… with to kids to support on my own, I’ve worked at the same place for going on 24 years, been working at something since I was 15, and yet…I have less heartburn with turning over my money to the government than people who are doing a whole lot better. Just goes to show that the more you have sometimes the more you want…or want to keep. Seems just greedy and petty to me. But then I’m moralizing again and nobody here ever likes that. Can’t help it that’s the way I feel about it. Should I lie and agree so I won’t be called off my high horse. Frankly I think the view is much nicer up here.

Needs2know

Needs2Know wrote:

I don’t know how much money you (Needs2Know) make nor do I wish to air my finances on a message board so the following numbers are strictly made-up for illustrative purposes:

Let’s say you make $30,000/year and have to pay 20% of that in taxes and I make $100,000/year and have to pay 33% in taxes. Your tax bill–$6,000. My tax bill–$33,000. Exactly what am I getting for my money that you aren’t?

Ok…we are all members of society and pull our weight according to our ability (to pay). I even agree that some money should be used to aid those in the society less fortunate than myself. However, by the above calculations, I’m paying an additional $13,000 just cuz I make more (based on if I was taxed at 20% instead of 33%…i.e. you make 33,000 so give us 6,000 – and you make 100,000 so give us 20,000 and then throw another 13,000 in for good measure). That’s more than twice as much as the other person pays in the first place all by itself.

Since I’m an avid horse rider I’ll climb on up here on my horse too and gladly look you straight in the eye across the fence between us without a twinge of guilt. I pay more than my share for king and country so I’m quite comfortable riding high as well. All the people who claim I’m a priviledged ass can follow behind my horse and clean up his mess.

(FYI: My mother was/is in fundraising so I grew-up with a strong ethic of donating money which my wife and I continue to do in addition to our taxes.)

So complain and whine and complain and whine and accuse your government of being unfair. Blah…Blah…Blah…Life ain’t fair most of the time. Think your favorite politician will do anything about it, then vote. I’ve got better things to do with my time than constantly worry about the inequities of life, there are just too damned many. People love to bitch about taxes. I think it’s damned boring. Besides isn’t there a way for people who make “your” kind of money to protect it from being overly taxed?

Besides let’s do the math here…I make 30,000 they take 6000 that leaves me with 24,000. You make 100,000 they take 33,000 that still leaves you with 66,000 who’s doing better here me or you? Looks to me like you’re still doing a heck of a lot better and complaining about it anyway.

Needs2know

“Your tax bill–$6,000. My tax bill–$33,000. Exactly what am I getting for my money that you aren’t?”
it’s not necessarily about service rendered unto you (although i would say for the most part, the richer do have access to much better services). it’s also about what you owe the government for being a support structure for you to earn that money.

And please don’t forget that after taxes, you are making more than twice she is. $24 thou vs. $66 thou. You don’t (or shouldn’t) need that much more than someone else to live. $42 thousand dollars is a lot of wiggle room for any luxuries you want or feel you deserve because you work harder.

i don’t see how it’s unfair. i can see how some may see it as unfair, but it’s not an unfair pratice.

jb_farley wrote:

What you are suggesting is a socialist system. A re-distribution of wealth. There are some threads around here on that very subject you might enjoy (for all I know you have participated in those threads…I didn’t check).

Exactly what better services do the rich avail themselves of that the poor don’t or more importantly can’t? As to the rest I’ve said before and will say agin I do not have a problem with paying taxes. I understand their necessity and function and agree with the concept on the whole.

Needs2Know wrote:

Not that I know of…at least not legal means. In fact, I’m even worse off because I don’t own property (actually just bought my first house…have yet to move in) and I don’t have kids. Both are large tax deductions. Of course kids and house payments cost MORE than you save in taxes but we’re talking about our tax bills here so we’ll leave it at that.

Is there no point where you people think taxes are too much? By your thinking should I be pleased (or at least not complain) if I get taxed at 70%? That’d leave me with $30,000…still more than the other person in our example (after taxes).

How much is too much? When do taxes cease to be a fair payment in support of a country (both government and society) and become a Robin Hood steal from the rich and give to the poor?

I’d go farther - it isn’t about service rendered to you at all. Government is, and always should be, a cost. I’m not going to get into flat v. progressive taxation, but the argument that I shouldn’t pay more than poor people because I get the same, or less, services is intellectually bankrupt. Taxes should be about taking into the government the funds it needs to perform the functions that we, through our elected leaders, decide it should perform. The “fair” way to decide how much money should go to the government (i.e., what functions it should perform), and how much individuals should pay is open to huge debate, but the basis of that debate should not be how much individuals get in return.
One thing I will say is that taxation should not be a method of social engineering. For example, the mortgage interest exemption is ludicrous. Why should the government care, and why should others subsidize, an individual’s decision to buy rather then rent?
FWIW it’s worth, these comments come from someone who’s “rich” according to the tax code. 48% of my bonuses disappear to taxes before I see them (I do get some of it back).
Sua

…or to support a structure that takes more and more of my money away and gives it to other people.

So I should be happy to give more money to the institution that takes more and more of my money…and feel obligated to do so?

look at it like this:…

it’s like insurance. the government, and all its beauracrocies, and structures, and programs. things that we have decided are important to us, or to the moral fabric, or to self-defense, whatever, we set up structures for. so that (theoretically) any citizen who is in need of those services can receive them.

now keep in mind, i am not going to have a need for all of these programs. and neither are you, or anybody else. but we can’t predict beforehand who’s going to need what, or how much of a certain service is requested, so we have to (a) create a program for these things, even if they will not get used all that much, and (b) allow a certain amount of liberal (i don’t mean politically, although i may just as well) overestimating for each structure’s needs.

i pay medical insurance in case i get one of many ailments, of need a certain proceudre done. i don’t ask to pay a lower rate than my friend lucinda who is a hypochondriac , and who pays the same premium as me, because she is using the resources a lot more than i (it’s a sad thing to see, munchausen’s disease).

btw, shouldn’t the important thing be not how much you pay in taxes, but how much money you have afterward? sure, you are paying more than 5 times the tax money, but with those rates the ratio of your cash stays the same pre- and post-tax, with your money staying at a little over three times mine.

SuaSponte wrote:

I don’t think it is intellectually bankrupt at all. I think it is appropriate to think in terms of what you get back from the money you pay out. You just need to broaden the definition of what you get back beyond your own pocketbook.

For example, for my taxes I get to live in a country that doesn’t have people starving on the street because of food stamps and welfare. I get to not have to worry about kids freezing to death in nasty Chicago winters because there are housing programs. I get to believe that everyone has a chance (albeit a difficult time) to raise themselves from poverty because of public schools and work programs. This is fine and I’m all for it.

However, I feel I have a right to get upset when I see the considerable amounts of money I send the government squandered. We can argue all day over what are or are not good programs for the government to fund but some things we can all agree on. For instance, ever walked into the DMV and waited in a 45 minute line while state employees are chatting behind the counter and only two windows are open (this has happened to me twice and the employees were window attendents because they eventually moved and opened two more windows). How about the Federal Mohair subsidy? What the hell is Mohair anyway and why should I subsidize it (in fairness this may be gone…last I heard of it was about 5 years ago). Subsidies for Bee farmers? That’s there (or was there) too.

Perhaps worst for me however is when I did go to our government and ask for the help I’ve been paying for. About 6 years ago I was laid off from my job (the owner sold the business). I decided my college degree wasn’t paying off and having had recent experiences with computers I thought I’d formalize it and get my little piece of paper saying I’m a certified computer engineer. The courses can take a year but I wanted to fast-track the whole thing so I laid out a plan to do it in 6 weeks. With that in mind a toddled off to the Unemployment Office so I could maintain my rent and feed myself. Stupid me told them the truth of what my plans were so they refused me any money because I wasn’t ‘looking for a job’. They would, however, pay me if I took a typing class so I could get a minimum wage job.

Fortunately my family was able to support me for the time it took me to get my certifications and I found a job in less than a week that paid 85% more than my last job. The one time I needed a government service directly and I got brushed off. There are people in that place who are professionally unemployed but don’t give Jeff any money because he’s not a bum.

Certainly not all people going for unemployment are bums but I worked in HR for awhile years ago and saw, with my own eyes, people who would take a job for a month and then get fired. An employer can fight to not allow the employee to collect unemployment benefits but in all the cases we fought only one was rejected. They pretty much get their money unless they’ve done something really blatant to get fired.

It is this sort of crap I DO mind paying for. Inefficiency and perpetual welfare cases.

Finally, my gripe is with people who feel it’s my obligation to continue throwing money at them because I’m more well off. This is NOT a socialist country or economy. Get off your ass and help yourself…I’ll be glad, even eager, to help you out if I can. If you want to sit on your ass and suck off the government tit indefinitely then you can rot where you are and don’t bitch to me if someday the milk runs dry.

One last thing. No one answered my earlier question of how much is too much. 37% acceptable to you? Ok. Is there a point where you do feel that it gets ridiculous or do we go with the theory mentioned earlier that as long as you have a lot leftover it doesn’t (or shouldn’t) matter how much the government takes?

Jeff I think we are arguing about definitions, not substance. Your statement that you have the right to be upset when the tax money you get dunned is squandered is correct - however, that is an issue of what functions a government should perform, not whether you get services back proportional to the taxes you pay.
Sua

The rich get more from society, so it’s only right to expect them to give more back.

Some years ago, I read about a woman lawyer who had hit the “glass ceiling” at her firm and was complaining because there was little or no chance that she would ever be made a partner. Yes, it was probably unfair, but I didn’t much give a damn. Her income was several times as big as mine, her social status was much higher, she had access to much better dental and health care, could afford many more luxuries both big and small, etc. etc.

It was probably a legitimate complaint - but so what? At the time I knew women who were worried sick about paying next month’s rent, hoping they wouldn’t end up living in the car with the kids. Not too long ago, I was never more than a paycheck or two away from homelessnes myself, and there were several times when I came frighteningly close to it. (I once avoided it by writing a bad check and just hoping and praying that something would turn up before the check bounced.)

So really, lady, I don’t freakin’ care.

And that’s the way I feel when the rich gripe about how unfair their taxes are. If you’re driving a late model BMW and wearing a Rolex, keep it to yourself, I don’t even wanna hear it.

SuaSponte wrote:

You’ve stumbled onto an economic pet peeve of mine. The home mortgage interest exemption is not a “break”. Exempting interest expenses from taxation is the flip-side of taxing interest received as income. A rational tax system can’t have one without the other.

For example, if I have a $100,000 mortgage at 8%, and I have $100,000 in the bank drawing 8%, should I take that money and pay off the loan? Many people who haven’t thought it through all the way would say “No, because you get a tax break on the mortgage.” In reality, the money you save by exempting the mortgage interest is exactly offset by the interest you receive from the savings account. The only things you need to consider when deciding this is how you value having cash on hand vs. being out of debt. This is as it should be.

This is why every tax proposal which would get rid of the mortgage interest deduction also does not tax interest someone receives as income. You can’t have one without the other.

BTW, the government is attempting some social engineering by not allowing personal interest to be deducted. The government is using the tax code in special-case ways to discourage what it doesn’t like, namely consumer debt.

Jeff, for someone who say he is in the top barcketes, you do not know very much about taxes. Income tax does not go to support Medicare and Social Security. In fact the 'filthy stinking rich" pay 0 into these taxes, as these are mostly a “pay as you go” PAYROLL tax, thus you only pay if you earn wages/salaries or are self employed. Made a billion gambling in the stock market? Not a dime goes to those programs.

Next as to your example of the 33% bracket for the 100K crowd. If you earned 100K and paid 33K in Federal income tax, there is something REALLY wrong, you didn’t take any deductions, even for yourself, and you did not even read the tax-table right. You have your mort int ded, and others, plus your personal deductions, there is NO 33% bracket, and you only pay the top % on the in that bracket. If you are married, with an income of 100K, you paid 28% (not 33) of every TAXABLE over 42K, and only 15% under that. I’m going to guess you paid under 20K in FIT. The 31% bracket is next for you at 104K, and that would only be for every TI over that figure, ie if your TI was 105K, only 1k would be at 31%. Of course, if you made a bunch gambling in the stock mkt, top bracket is only 20% for those .

Curt, as a professional, I can tell you that a “rational” tax system can indeed tax any income, but allow no deductions for Mort int. BUT, since so many I know depend on the Morrt int ded, we would have to phase it out over 30 years or so. I have suggested we start by getting rid of the “2nd home” deduction.

Now, as to “flat taxes”. I’m gonna say this one more time. Unless you are in the top 10% of income (and I don’t think any of us are, or if we are, not by much), any “flat tax” would have you paying MORE! Yes, that’s right, in order to remain “revenue neutral”, if you cut the taxes of the very wealthy, WE ALL MUST PAY MORE. So for all of you going “yes if we had a system where I just paid 10%, that would be fair”, thats not how it would work. It would be more like 20%, and the same Social security ect taxes, ie the average wage earner would pay TWICE as much tax. It has to be.

You know, I went to graduate school for seven years, putting my life on hold. I didn’t buy a house until I was 35. For the last three years, I’ve typically worked between 60-70 hours a week and continued to help my wife with the children.

However, I’ve not been involved the way I wanted to. I’m just now at the age of 37, starting to financially enjoy the years of work I put in. My work week has just dropped to about 50-55 hours and my weekends are becoming my own again. I’ve got over $30,000 in student loans to pay back.

This is not a woe is me rant, I know I’ve been lucky in that I had two parents who cared and were emotionally, if not financially, supportive. However, I have a small practice now where we employ about 10 other people. The taxes a small business pays is frightening. On top of the personal taxes I now pay. I do get angry sometimes. Why should I pay more because I’m married? I know I make more than a lot of people, but I worked damn hard and I gave up a lot. This past February, I purchased a 97 Saturn. Prior to that, I drove an 89 Nissan that didn’t have airconditioning–and I live in Florida. Okay, this is turning into a rant.

Perhaps a national flat task in combination with a sales tax would be more fair. I don’t know.

Danielinthewolvesden wrote:

Just a few clarification points. I said earlier that the numbers I was using were strictly made-up. I make no claim to earning $100,000…it might be more, it might be less. My finances are mine and not for posting on this Board. As for 33% tax rate I again was making that up for illustrative purposes. I have no doubt the actual tax rate for an income of $100K is different. Till I hear differently I’ll by your numbers. Also, for the record, I am a salaried employee so I DO pay into SS and all that other good stuff.

As for taking me to task on the 80% figure and many people not paying into those various programs misses the point. It does not matter who does or doesn’t pay into those programs. Those numbers were taken from a 5+ year old memory of P.J. O’Rourke’s book Parliament of Whores. Regardless of WHO pays the government spends the VAST majority of its income in a given year to entitlement programs. That means the government has NO choice in the disbursement of those funds. The money is essentially gone as soon as it hits their bank account. The small percentage of money left over (on the order of 8% of the federal budget) can be fought over as to whether a dam gets built in Oregon or a toxic waste dump gets cleaned in Nevada.

This point goes to the discussion of ‘what you get’ for your tax money and I was pointing out that 80% of my taxes disappear to programs of which I only receive indirect benefit from (i.e. no starving people on the street). I’m not saying keeping people from starving isn’t a worthwhile goal but I find it interesting to see a variety of people posting the idea that the rich gain more benefits than the poor from taxes. So far not ONE person has pointed to any specific instance where this happens.

SuaSponte said I was merely quibbling on definitions but I disagree. When paying 37% (or 31% or whatever) I think a person CAN start to say enough is enough. I don’t care if you have $100,000 left AFTER taxes. Again, this is not a socialist society that uses (or should use) taxes as a redistribution of wealth. I also might point out that no one has picked up the glove I dropped and answered the question of whether they feel there is a point where taxes become too much or whether they feel no amount is too much as long as the person is left with a ‘lot’ of money afterwards (a ‘lot’ of money being open to definition).

Add me to the list of folk who never complain about paying taxes. In fact, when I see how much I owe each April, it reminds me how lucky I am to make enough that I owe that much. And no, I am well off, certainly comfortable, but I don’t consider myself rich. I work for the government, and will never make 6 figures. I inherited a certain amount from my folks, but that is pretty much sitting untouched to help pay for my kids’ education. We have never carried debt other than our house (or cars when they offered outrageously low financing). My wife and I consider one of our biggest successes is both of us graduating from law school with no debt. We paid for our own educations, but got waivers and stipends from assistantships. Now, my wife stays home with the kids - we prefer our chosen lifestyle, over the additional $ her working fulltime would bring. (She made approx 30% more than me when she stopped working 9 years ago.)

Sitting in my comfortable tho not ostentatious house, buying basically whatever I was to eat or wear, driving my recent model subcompact and minivan, it’s pretty tough for me to consider myself overly burdened by taxes.

Much of the Republican economic platform strikes me as greedy. “I’ve got mine, now I want more.” If someone hads been successful, they succeeded despite the system. So now that they have theirs, why do they begrudge that same system? I think it ties into many folk having essentially limitless wants. Whatever they have, they are still unsatisfied. Instead of appreciating what they have, they focus on what they don’t have.

I also think a big reason the flat tax went nowhere is that those with $ realized they do better now with the various deductions, than they would with any of the flat rates proposed.

I also am not sure it works out dollar for dollar, but I can imagine well-to-do folk use certain government services more than poorer folk. For example, air travel is highly subsidized by the feds (FAA). Perhaps they vacation in national parks. Government at all levels keeps building new roads and infrastructure for urban sprawl. Do wealthy neighborhoods get better service concerning police protection, road maintenance, beautification projects, schools, etc?

In short, my thought is, quit bitching and enjoy what you’ve got. Realize how fortunate you are.

Jeff42: *I find it interesting to see a variety of people posting the idea that the rich gain more benefits than the poor from taxes. So far not ONE person has pointed to any specific instance where this happens. *

Jeff, I think quite a good case can be made that more of the government’s funds are spent on things that benefit the rich more directly than they benefit the poor. Say you’re a wealthy executive and we’re comparing your “social wage” (the total benefits you get from society) to that of a very poor urban woman.

On the one hand, she gets food stamps, Medicaid, perhaps some federal housing assistance, free clinics, none of which assistance is ever used by you. That sort of expenditure goes to people like her and not to people like you.

On the other hand, she hasn’t got a car and can’t afford to fly. Thus, government expenditures for highways and the FAA (not to mention artificially low gasoline prices) are much more for the use of people like you and not for people like her. If your company is heavily dependent on road or air transportation, you benefit still more from these things. The Federal Reserve Bank, federal deposit insurance, and the Securities and Exchange Commission exist to help safeguard the assets of people like you; they’re pretty much irrelevant to her, since she has no investments. If she shoplifts something from a convenience store, we can arrest, try, and sentence her quite easily and cheaply. If you commit white-collar crime, we will have a much bigger and more expensive job bringing you to justice, and you can drag the process on year after costly year with appeals and legal maneuvering. The Food and Drug Administration spends a whole lot on testing and approving “luxury” drugs and treatments, like Viagra and anti-aging procedures and new antidepressants, that will never form part of the minimal and standard medical care she gets. Government scholarships and federally insured college loans go to your kids, not hers, who never even managed to get a high school diploma. When the National Science Foundation or the National Institute of Standards and Technology develops a new technique or standard that your business can make large profits from, it puts no money in her pocket.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. Here’s a breakdown of total federal expenditure from the FY 2000 budget (exclusive of debt reduction):

  • Social Security 23%
  • Medicare 12%
  • Net interest 11%
  • Defense discretionary 16%
  • Non-defense discretionary 19%
  • Medicaid 7%
  • Other means-tested entitlements (e.g., AFDC) 6%
  • Other mandatory 6%

All means-tested entitlements, therefore—expenditure that’s earmarked specifically for the needy—add up to no more than 13% of the total expenditure. Leaving aside Social Security, Medicare, interest, and defense as benefits that are truly universal (which isn’t quite fair, because in addition to direct benefits to individuals they also help support people like doctors and defense contractors, who tend not to be poor), we still have 25% of total expenditure for everything else. And it seems pretty apparent to me that a good deal of the “everything else” benefits the wealthy and middle-class much more significantly than the poor.

(Since I started typing this I note that Dinsdale has said some of the same things, but they can stand a little repetition. :))

*I also might point out that no one has picked up the glove I dropped and answered the question of whether they feel there is a point where taxes become too much or whether they feel no amount is too much as long as the person is left with a ‘lot’ of money afterwards (a ‘lot’ of money being open to definition). *

Confiscatory taxation, you mean; after a certain income level the government simply takes everything. Well, it’s probably not very useful to collect opinions on this, because it won’t make much difference in terms of practical tax revenue. But you can have my opinion anyway: I’d be against a 100% tax or surtax rate at any income level, because it’s essentially establishing an income cap, for which I see no practical need and which seems arbitrary and puritanical. Sure, personally I quite concur (puritanically) that nobody really needs to make more than, say, a thousand times the official poverty-level income; but hey, if anyone feels differently and wants to go for the record I won’t try to stop them. “The theory of taxation,” to quote the Tennessee Shad or Doc Macnooder or some such philosopher, “is to soak the taxed all they’ll stand for, but leave them just enough so they’ll come again.”

Dinsdale wrote:

The FAA is, of course, a federal agency and thus supported via federal taxes but that is not the same thing as an airline subsidy. United Airlines does not get money from the FAA or have cheaper landing rights at an airport because of the FAA. Besides, if the FAA DID subsidize airlines then that is, in fact, a payout to the poor. The rich can already afford flying. If subsidies lower prices on airfare then that allows for people with lower incomes to fly.

Wealthy people do get better schools and better police protection but those are supported via local taxes (city taxes, property taxes, etc.). Wealthy people move to areas with high property values/high property taxes so they can enjoy the benefits just listed. In short, in this case, they CHOOSE to pay for greater services and really have no room for complaint. Being rich they probably have the option of moving to most anyplace they like and could opt for a city with lower taxes if they so wished.

For the record I am happy for what I have. Indeed, I do NOT want taxes lowered (but neither do I care to see them raised). I’d like to see the federal debt paid down and Social Security made solvent before the Republicans start handing money back via tax breaks (regardless of WHO those tax breaks benefit…that’s another discussion altogether). Neither do I wish to see tax and spend Democrats running rampant on a take from the rich and give to the poor schemes. In my view the government never does anything better than the private sector can so you end up with bloated, money sucking bureaucracies. I’d rather see not-for-profit organizations take up the slack of providing many public services (I realize not everything can be managed this way but I believe more could).

In short, I’m a Social Liberal and an Economic Conservative in my politics which frequently puts me at odds with both sides. Basically, I like to see services for the poor but I like to see efficiency and results for the money spent rather than a bottomless pit for money to disappear in.

I disagree with your opinion that the FAA does not subsidize the air industry. The government is providing a tremendous service to a specific industry, instead of requiring that the airlines provide it at their own cost. That gives air transportation $ that is not given to alternative transportation systems, such as train or road infrastructure improvements.

When I fly about 5-6X a year, it does not appear that lower income folk are disproportionately represented in the airports. Don’t have the figures to back it up, but I suspect that the vast majority of business travel, and a large percentage of travel to vacation destinations, is taken by the middle class on up. Before you rip me on suggesting you can tell income by appearance, I suggest you go to the local Amtrak or Greyhound station, and see if you can distinguish the clientele from the frequent fliers.

I also feel Kimstu’s points about the financial sector are well placed.

Gas prices, I’m not as sure. Think they are low because of market forces. I’m a strong fan of taxing the hell out of gas, but many folk argue that would disproportionately harm the poor.

Regarding your challenge as to what tax rate is excessive. Not sure. Could we flip it around and ask how much income does someone really need? I’ll give it a shot, just to provide a nice flame target. I’ll say $500G a year net is a phenomenal amount of money. Anyone should be able to live extremely well on that. So if you gross $1 mill, 50% tax rate is not too high. Then you can ratchet it up from there. Perhaps 66% on the next $3 mill to net $2 mill from a $4 mill income. Not sure what a max rate would be. I guess you have to try to figure out how high rates can get before you discourage people from working harder and trying to make more.