boo hoo. i'm rich and have to pay thirty seven percent in taxes.

Great Debates
1

okay, the title is sarcastic but the message won’t be (i hope). disclaimer- i have very strong liberal tendencies, so take this post with a camelful of salt.

i hate taxes. i really do. i am very middle class, and it burns me up that i get 25% deducted from my paychecks. but on the other hand, i really do get a lot out of living here in the states. my garbage is collected. i don’t have to go to a cholera-ridden well for drinking water. dead people are routinely picked up off the street. and there’s tv. can’t forget precious tv.

so as much as it burns my butt, i don’t have a huge problem with it. so why the hell do the very wealthy complain that they are paying a higher percentage in taxes? first of all, rich guy, you are still making a HELL of a lot more, post-taxes, than most people in america, including myself. you still have a pretty high standard of living (otherwise, you wouldn’t be in the upper-class). secondly, damn STRAIGHT we are going to take more out of your check. you are living in the good ol’ U.S. o’ A., and as such, your money was made under the system which has been set up. the government and all related parephenlia is part of the reason that you made the money in the first place. and get your garbage collected. etc.

so why the big deal? i can understand being angry about it (just as i am about 25%), but just swallow the load and move on. sure you are paying more than me, but i am paying more than others. it’s a big country, so don’t be greedy.

does it really just come down to greed? i really don’t think so, but that’s how it looks on the surface.

2

>> so why the hell do the very wealthy complain that they are paying a higher percentage in taxes

Because of their first ammendment right to do so?

Besides, I don’t hear them complaining… which is not surprising since they don’t live in my neighborhood. Do they keep you from sleeping at night?

To tell the truth I hear much more complaining by the have nots about how unfair the system is to them than by the haves. I guess the haves are too busy taking their money offshore… but the fact is I don’t hear them complaining half as much. Can you give us examples?

3

The rich have many ways to hide their wealth. If their tax returns says they make 200K and are paying 37% on it. There’s probably another 200K that they made without paying any taxes on it.

The rich cry about it because they don’t see why they should have the burden of paying more taxes than lazy people. The reason they make more is if they are lucky or work harder or both. Why should a person who works harder pay more taxes than a person who just doesn’t give a damn.

4

Thanks for qualifying me as a lazy person. I’ll remember that it is was because I was lazy that I didn’t get an inhertance, lost my job, or faced large medical bills.

5

Major - why are you assuming that the ‘rich’ are all criminally hiding their true wealth? I think that’s missing the point a bit.

In the UK, we also have a tiered taxation system (see http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/////////education/education3.htm for info)

So, the question is this. Why should we have different rates of taxation? Most people would accept that the more you earn, the more tax you should pay - but a flat rate would take care of that.
The data in http://www.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/stats/table2_4.htm show that the top 10% of the UK population pay 48% of the total tax bill. Some might say that was disproportionate.

Russell

6

Why do people constantly bellyache about taxes at all!!?? I just don’t see it. The truth is I usually feel I’m getting quite a bit for my money. My federal taxes don’t bother me as much as the sales taxes that I pay everyday. They also vary from city to county to city. If I buy a hamburger at Mickey Ds in Richmond I pay a 9.5% sales tax! If I get an order of fries in Chesterfield County the sales tax is much lower. Yes, if I were going to complain about taxes it would be the local taxes that I pay everyday, not the taxes that I pay to the government. I just don’t think they are that bad. I rather see at as paying for the opportunity to live in a country where I don’t have to set up a shanty at the foot of a trash heap or send my children out into the street to beg for food. A place where I can keep most of what I do make. And a place where if I do fall on hard times I can expect my government to give me a hand in getting back on my feet. A place where I never have to worry that armed thugs will enter my home and drag my son off never to be seen again. A place where if I or one of my loved ones is charged with a crime we will not languish in jail, unrepresented awaiting trial for years. I’m paying in essence for a safe place to live. I think it’s worth it.

Needs2know

7

I suppose the rationale is that, if you tax 25% flat rate, for instance, someone earning £10,000 a year would notice it more than someone earning £100,000 and effectively would be more harshly taxed. Maybe it comes down to the old maxim behind the Welfare State “from each according to his means, to each according to his need”.

FWIW I agree with you in principle. (and funnily enough, I agree even more every payday)

Charley.

8

Not that I’m defending the complaining you’re talking about but, it can seem like a punishment for success. Think of it this way…if you work hard, more is taken away from you (in taxes), and if you work less, more is given to you (e.g., welfare). That doesn’t seem fair. (Yes, I know, some of the rich don’t work at all.)

Anyway, I think everyone complains about paying taxes…it’s just that people don’t want to hear it from the rich.

9

Good point Phobos!

We expect the rich to pay significantly more to have the local police department send a car past his house every two hours than we expect from someone of more modest means.

It seems that tax dollars are one of the few places where the norm is to charge according to the consumers ability to pay, rather than for the price of the service.

10

before I get flamed, yes, I know that many poor people work hard. I was just trying to describe one of the gripes of the rich paying higher taxes.

no, I’m not rich, and no, I’m not right-wing.

11

a little hijack…

I don’t understand sales taxes for necessities. It’s a huge burden on the poor and middle class. I can see sales tax on luxuries items (e.g. alcohol) and (maybe) on very expensive cars and boats and such, but I think sales tax in general should be abolished. It is essentially a flat tax that costs poor people proportionately more to buy such things as underwear, tampons, and shampoo. Why doesn’t this get more attention.

end of hijack…

I don’t make very much so I don’t pay too high an income tax percentage, but I think it is very much worth the tax I pay to have the services I get. I try to remember this when I pay my taxes. It doesn’t seem to me that the rich people I know complain any more about income tax than anyone else.

12

Sorry, Phobos, if I wasn’t clear enough.

Your point about not wanting to hear it from the rich is right on the mark. We sympathize with those people poorer than ourselves, and understand the complaints of our peers. And we have little tolerance for the gripes of those that we consider richer than us.

13

It’s greed and stupidity. BTW if any of you rich people want to trade tax brackets and pay checks just call me.

14

This flat tax thing keeps rearing its ugly head. It’s as if nobody ever bothers to read Cecil’s Columns.

15

An interesting observations, taddycat,

You complain (albeit calmly) about the sales tax being unfair to the poorest segment of society, but not the sticker price of the purchased commodity. Let me hit a couple of points.

  1. If it’s fair to charge $2.00 for a bottle of shampoo and $4.00 for a “Happy Meal”, why isn’t it fair to charge a fixed price for an education? We already charge university students by the hour.

  2. Don’t forget that a percentage of EVERY retail sale contains “hidden” taxes. The rates vary from relatively low to extremely high, but they are always there. Do you favor scaling the hidden taxes, too so that the paid price of a commodity changes according to income?

  3. This country tried a luxuries tax some years ago. The result was that the rich bought their yachts overseas. When sales dropped, boat builders first had to fire their help, then ultimately went broke and closed. The result was that the U.S. lost an entire industry. And with it the revenue, jobs, and taxes that it produced.

16

FYI: I’m guessing at the numbers I will list below because they are from a faulty memory but the numbers will be very close to what they were written as…

In P.J. O’Rourke’s book Parliament of Whores he mentions that 80% of the yearly federal budgetgoes to three entitlement programs…Welfare, Medicare and Social Security. Another 12% or so goes to the military leaving about 8% leftover as discretionary funds (roads and what not).

Guess what? I do not use Welfare, Medicare/Medicaid or Social Security. Hell, Social Security will be going bankrupt right about the time I come of age to collect.

I understand the need for taxes and have no problem with the concept but don’t give me this “you benefit too” crap cuz if I paid for what I get in return I could cut my tax bill by more thatn 75%. What I pay in taxes easily outstrips any other single outlay of money I spend in a year…more than my house payment even.

What pisses me off is it is NEVER my income level that gets a break. My wife and I are classic DINK’s (Dual Income No Kids) and do quite well but we aren’t rich either. Nice solid middle class earns us a tax hit of a little over 33%. When the government talks about tax cuts who are they for?

Republicans: Ease up on the rich…usually about 2% of the population. They’re BIG donors to campaigns.

Democrats: Ease up on the poor…maybe 33% (that’s a WAG on my part). It’s a popular position to take and while they may not have money they outnumber the rich and can make a difference at the polls.

Guess what folks. The middle class, as usual, shoulders the burden.

When do I ever see a freakin tax cut? Hell, even the marriage penalty (of which my wife and I get hit with…about an extra $1,300/year) looks like it will get vetoed! I’m not asking for special favors but why the penalty for being married? That’s not fair.

Oh, and I almost forgot. You also get taxed by the State, County and City you live in (probably). You get taxed at teh pump and taxed every time you buy anything. 33%? 37%? I bet if you add it all up you’re closer to 50% (again a WAG I’ll admit but I’m cookin now…why let facts stop me?).

As to the rich hiding their money they don’t…at least not most of them. And neither is a flat tax necessarily a good idea. Here’s what Cecil has to say on the subject…
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_139.html

17

Just to beat my own drum some more…

In case you don’t want to bother with the link I posted in my post above and question theveracity of what I quoted here this is what Cecil mention’s

I rest my case…

18

In my state (KY), anyway, necessities are not taxed. (The definition of “necessities” can be odd, but I don’t pretend that I could do any better.)

I expect to someday be in a nice tax bracket, unless the HMOs have their way. That doesn’t bother me at all.

I could say that it isn’t fair that I worked my ass off and went through the emotional pipe-beating of medical school and residency only to have the government take such a large bite of my money. However, I go to a state medical school, which means that about half the cost of my education is paid for through taxes. The rest is paid for with government-subsidized loans. When I start a practice, I will more than likely get help from the government then as well.
When all is said and done the government will have spent a hell of a lot more on me that it would have on a welfare recipient. I don’t think that is unusual among people in the upper tax brackets to take proportionally more just as they give proportionally more.

So if I actually do creep up into that top bracket, don’t expect to hear me complaining.

Dr. J

19

Tymp wrote:

It pains me to say this, but Cecil’s flat-tax column was one of political philosophy, not objective facts. The reason I’m for the flat tax is because I think that a tax where everyone pays the same proportion is more fair than one that’s progressive. A tax of an equal amount on every person would be more fair, but the government couldn’t raise enough revenue to support its socialist desires with a head tax. The major flaw that I saw with Cecil’s being against the flat tax is that he is assuming that the current system is ideally “fair”, therefore any system that allows the rich to pay less than they do now is inherently a bad idea. This is begging the question.

And Doctor J wrote:

I think this is very unusual, with doctors being the glaring exception. Furthermore, income tax is paid to the federal government (I think that’s what we’re talking about here, although I’ve heard that some states also collect income tax), and your medical school subsidy was from the state.

20

I hate those rich jerks. THey start businesses, they invest, they employ people…and for that they should punished through a much, much higher tax rate. I have climbed the ladder reasonably hig. My wife is in her 10th year of post grad education. we should definitely be punished for that. And our punishment should definitely benefit those who haven’t done jack shit with thier lives.

[/sarcasm]