What, exactly, does it mean to be ‘born again’?
And… this is probably not the most politically correct thing to say - but why is it that so many of the people who said they were ‘born again’ freaked me out?
IANAC, but, to my understanding, somewhere in the Christian bible asks Jesus, (and I’m paraphrasing here) “So, how do I get to heaven?” and Jesus says “Only if you’re born again, can you get into heaven.” The guy then asks “What? You think a grown man can crawl back into the womb, or something?” So, Jesus says, “Don’t be a putz! You’ve got to be born in water and spirit.” ASt this point, the guy pretty much says “Huh?” and Jesus answers, “Boy, you’re dense. Look, there’s only one person alive who’s been in heaven, right? And that’s the messiah, the son of man, because he’s from there. G-d sent him down from heaven so that anyone who believes in him and listens to him can get to heaven. G-d sent his son, but there are some people who don’t want to recognize that, because they’re evil, and evil people don’t want to be around good things, but if you believe and do good things, you’ll get to heaven.”
So, the people who are saying they’re “born again” are saying that they made the decision to believe that Jesus is G-d and become Christian.
That should be “Somewhere in the Christian bible, someone asks Jesus”, but you probably figured that out. It’s in the book of John, in the third chapter.
This life, into which you were born, will not last. This world, into which you were born, will perish. To live beyond these limits you must be born again, into the spirit that Jesus has brought to the Earth. It’s a metaphor, man. The world is not where you find salvation; it is beyond the world. The contradiction is a description of the realization that all you have is nothing, unless you make it real with the love of God. It describes a whole new life, in a whole new world, like being born all over again.
Why does it freak you out when people use the term? Could be a lot of reasons. Some who purport to be messengers of Christ are messengers for themselves, and bring with them a whole lot of judgments, condemnations, and an expectation that you will respect them for their piety. That’s fairly creepy. Or, you might find the concept of leaving everything you have valued behind you, and seeking only the love of God unreasonable. It is a very hard concept to accept that everything in the world is secondary to what lies beyond it.
Don’t judge that message by the messengers. Learn about love; learn about putting your own interests, and desires behind you, and the benefit of others before you. Let yourself become the change you want to see in this world, and wait with calm assurance that God will see you, and know you. The time will come when you will see Him. Then you will be born, into the eternal life of the spirit.
I commend to you the Bible, in a translation you find yourself able to understand most easily. When you want to find the spirit of love, and the personification of eternal faith, read it. Don’t worry if you don’t understand it all. It is the story of others who have sought to know God. It is the story of God’s love.
It is not a science book, or a self-help program, or a political action primer. It is a way that men have found God. It can help you do that. So can prayer. If you feel the need for fellowship in your journey, seek out the people who you think live their lives most like you think God would live. Ask them. Don’t give them money, they don’t need it. Neither do you.
Tris
“He deserves Paradise who makes his companions laugh.” ~ Koran ~
Oh, and why do they freak you out? In America, fundamentalists made a big deal about saying that they were “Born Again”. So, many of the people you meet who are vocal about being born again are fundamentalists – which, no offense to fundamentalists, is not exactly mainstream – and therefore different and freaky. However, live and let live. (Barna research tends to show that people who consider themselves born again are more conservative socially: for instance, http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=95&Reference=F shows BAC co-habitate at 25% vs non-BAC at 37%. )
Oh, and yes, I’m broadly categorizing. For any BAC who isn’t a fundamentalist, I apologize – you are perfectly correct, right, and I don’t mean to belittle you, but you are somewhat underrepresented in America.
Me’Corva
Going from one survey on one statistic (co-habitation prior to marriage) and arriving at the conclusion that ‘BACs are more conservative socially’ is a bit of a leap, don’t you think? For cryin’ out loud, the very article you quoted said that BACs were just as likely to divorce.
But anyway, that obviously wasn’t the main point of your post (thus the parantheses <g>).
I guess the BACs I have met have been so — extreme, I guess is the term I want. Almost fanatic, maybe.
Although I will admit to being more than a bit fuzzy on what exactly a fundamentalist is.
The reason why Dragon Ash is freaked out is because the people who proudly proclaim themselves as “born again” are usually the same folks who will then forcibly try to convert him to their cause.
John 3:1-7, specifically verse 5.
And then 1 Peter 1:23
Quotes taken from http://bible.gospelcom.net/, using the New International Version.
“This life, into which you were born, will not last . . . To live beyond these limits you must be born again, into the spirit that Jesus has brought to the Earth . . . all you have is nothing, unless you make it real with the love of God . . . The time will come when you will see Him. Then you will be born, into the eternal life of the spirit. I commend to you the Bible . . . It is a way that men have found God.”
—I think THIS is why they freak you out. For those of us who are not religious, statements like this are as foreign and incomprehensible as people saying they were abducted by space aliens, or that vampires live in their attics.
Capt Amazing—pretty kewl translation…pretty much sums up the story in today’s terms.
Tris, if BAC were as you said, the world would be a better place. It seems that the BACs tend to be Bible literalist and therefore do not suffer people with different viewpoints.
There is stuff in the Bible that does not hold true today. Specifically the purity laws of the Old Testament. Also, you need to understand the context of what the writer was trying to say. Things get so misquoted it makes the Bible to be a book to condemn people who do not fit what you think they should be.
I try to live the Christian life as Jesus stated. In a nutshell, be kind to all, even those who you dislike. Still, according to the more radical BACs I’m a sexual pervert because I happen to be gay and in a gay relationship. (Nevermind I’m probably more monogamous than they).
Dragon, you need to take BACs with a very large grain of salt. Some are wonderful people, some are scum who will get a great comeuppance come judgement day!
Is this actually true, or is it just that fundies make a lot more noise?
Afterthought: or is that what you meant by under-represented?
Eve,
I am profoundly sad to know that I freak you out. I intend no ill to you, in anything that I said. I don’t believe that people who are not religious are any less loved by God than I am, and certainly have no desire to treat you with anthing but complete respect. I only answer questions on matters of faith when they are asked. I have no authority to make you see my point of view, nor have I contempt for yours.
At the same time, I cannot deny my Lord, or my faith. When it is questioned, there are times when I must speak out.
This is the appropriate place, I thought that OP indicated the appropriate time. Perhaps I have erred.
Tris
P.S. I have never met any aliens, or any vampires. My associates assure me that although I am unconventional, I do not appear dangerous.
“The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure.
The Way of the sage is to act but not to compete.” ~ Lao-tzu ~
Eyke wrote:
I think there are a few Orthodox Jews out there who might disagree with this statement.
Nah, that doesn’t freak me out at all. I am not a Bible thumber, but Eccles. 1:10 (THere is no new thing under the sun) maybe one of the most beautiful yet sobering words I have ever read. The ultimate vanity of life, the reward of true everlasting life found in a ‘higher power’ (be it God, or whatever) is a philosophy I can deal with (although I personally do not believe in the Christian God to the exclusion of any and all other religions).
Eve - you say that ‘when (your faith) is questioned, you must speak out’.
Do people question your faith directly? Or do you feel your faith being questioned by people (like myself) making statements like the above (I don’t believe in the Christian God exclusively - OK, that is not a very good way of putting it - but you probably get my point).
In the context of what I was commenting on, learning about “being born again” thru the Bible, I stand by my statement. The purpose of the purity laws was to make the Hebrews different from the revailing cultures of the day. Hence why Orthodox Jews still follow them.
Cheers!
I’m born again. I certainly don’t use force when I “try to convert” people. I find that as one proceeds up the mystical ladder that is spiritual maturity, it becomes far less a question of a specific act called witnessing, or conversion. Your whole life becomes a witness. You don’t seek the will of God because you’re too busy BEING the will of God. This is a genu-ine, bone-fide mystical revelation and I’d be fibbing if I said I managed to walk that walk all the time, but that’s the idea. When I’ve been walking as I should, I can have complete strangers start justifying themselves to me without my ever having said one word. It’s a vibe thing, if you will.
Oftentimes, speaking of Christ at all is seen as proselytizing, just as mentioning evolution among many of my friends is seen as spoiling for a fight. It’s just a question of immaturity and ignorance. Please, don’t be thinking born again means doofus.
For that matter ignorant doesn’t mean stupid, and immature doesn’t mean we can’t learn from them. But that’s another thread…
ps: purity laws. Isn’t there one that says lepers’ clothes should be burned and the smoke allowed to travel through their tents? Sounds like fumigation t’me…
I think the reason discussions with BACs make some people uncomfortable is because they tend to sort of go against our ordinary “rules of conversation” if you will. You know…we stand so many feet apart in general, we talk only about certain subjects, we speak at a certain volume.
If I’m having a discussion about religion, I expect my conversational cohorts to mention theirs–including information about whether they’re born again. This doesn’t make me feel odd or uncomfortable in any way. However, someone who offers that information in situations in which it isn’t the subject at hand, puts everyone ill at ease. Injecting religion, sex, politics, or out-of-place curses into conversations with inappropriate people (those who aren’t close enough to you to share this personal information) or inappropriate times (where others can hear, in a business setting) is simply considered rude by most people.
GOOD
Me: Hi Mary, I’m going to church this weekend, want to come?
Mary: Nah, I’m a born again Christian and I’m already going to my own church.
BAD
Me: Gosh I wish I had some toast for breakfast.
Mary: I got on my knees and prayed to God for toast this morning and I know he will send it to me, for I am blessed.
Maybe it’s too bad we generally don’t feel we can discuss our religion openly with casual acquaintances. Most of the time, it doesn’t bother me to hear someone else talk about their faith. It can be interesting. But there ARE times that a religious reference or proseletyzing is about as appropriate as mentioning that you masturbated three times before bed last night. And those whose faith demands that they “witness” to others sometimes break those social norms.
-L
In my experience, “born again” is short-hand for “accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.” Implicit in this for most fundamentalists is the belief that only through Jesus may you be saved. Therefore, if you’re not “born again,” you’re not saved.
I have accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and savior, but since I absolutely reject the idea that He is the only path to Heaven, I assume that fundamentalists would tell you that I am not born again. I’ve always been a little fuzzy on it myself.
EVE, I have to say that if you are freaked out when a Christian honestly shares his beliefs upon request, then you probably freak out too easily. TRIS obviously wasn’t trying to covert you (in the pursuit of which many fundamentalists can be freakishly zealous), he was just saying what he believes. Surely the fact that you do not share a person’s beliefs is not enough to keep you from respecting that it is, in fact, what the person believes, and that unless he’s trying to push those beliefs on you, it’s nothing worth freaking out about.
What an odd thread.
So somebody asks a question that is obviously going to require a religious/spiritual answer, what else is there? did anyone actually expect Tris to say ‘Oh it’s easy, you just climb back inside your mother and come out again’ - wouldn’t this freak you out more?