Less of a Christian?

Great Debates
1

This is a question which was troubling me earlier this week, but I wanted to hold off until Polycarp could rejoin us, and not just because I thought he’d be on my side.

I’m not a born-again Christian. I was raised in the Episcopal Church, and still am an Episcopalian. I’ve had profound religious experiences in my life, but I can’t point to a date and time, or even a month and year, and say “That’s when I accepted Christ as my Saviour.” I do vaguely remember saying and meaning the words when I was about six years old, but I’m not sure that counts. On the other hand, I definitely do have a personal relationship with Christ, and I’m as certain that he’s my Saviour as I am of anything.

I don’t do hellfire, condemnation, and judgement, because, as a teenager, when my life and faith were in greatest doubt, I was getting that from all sides and what I desparately needed from some source was acceptance and love. Christianity gave that to me. When everyone around me was telling me “Nobody likes you!”, Christianity told me, “God loves you.” I needed badly to believe someone did. It wasn’t tangible in any measurable form, but it would do. “Just as I am without one plea” is the way one hymn in my hymnal starts. That’s what I needed.

So, to get to the question, I sometimes get the impression that some people would consider me less of a Christian because I wasn’t born again on a specific date and time, or because it’s difficult for me to whisper an addition to a prayer list, rather than shout out God’s praises in church, (does singing Allelulias in my car count?) or because I focus on mercy rather than judgement. My brother and sister Christians at other churches judged me when I was a kid. They also had no problem with teasing me and a friend of mine mercilessly, to the point where my friend would wind up in tears in church. Am I less of a Christian because I’m just an Episcopalian who was never born again, though I was baptized and confirmed, or because I have chosen love over judgement, even though I acknowledge that we all are judged?

CJ

2

I wouldn’t worry about it.

“For he who is least among you all, he is the greatest.” — Jesus (Luke 9:48)

“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” — Jesus (Matthew 20:16)

:slight_smile:

3

Ruth Bell Graham, Billy’s wife, is in much the same situation as you-
she never had a profound change or moment of decision, she’s just always trusted Jesus. Don’t sweat it. Like when Lt. Dan asks Forrest Gump is he found Jesus & FG replies “Ah didn’t know He was lost.”

4

Of course not, thhough it should be noted I am not a practising Christian, I was raised in the Anglican church (English Episcopalian) and in my experince the general (the world anglican communion is a very broad church tho) episcopalian outlook of tolerance, fraternity, etc., etc. is closer to the teachings of the new testement than any other denomination.

5

cj - in the other thread when I said that being “born again” was overrated I meant it, although in two very different ways.

The first and most obvious way is that I can assure you that since deconverting I have not suffered any ill effects, nor found myself inexplicably compelled to rape, pillage, and burn. :smiley:

The second - and which answers your OP - is that when I was born again (of the Southern Baptist variety to be specific) we stressed the need for that conversion experience, so that one could be “sure” of one’s salvation. OTOH, many a minister pointed out that even if one did not recall a specific time of conversion, that if you “trusted in your heart that Jesus was your savior” then you were saved nonetheless. So, take it from this former fundie :wink: - you are no less of a Christian because you cannot remember some specific time of conversion, at least according to those arbiters of Proper Christianity - the Southern Baptists.

IMHO, your acts as I have witnessed them online appear to be right in line with what Jesus taught. By their fruits you shall know them, indeed.

6

Mars Horizon, you must not have done it right:D

7

Isn’t this exactly what the parable of the prodigal son is about? Was the prodigal son more beloved by his father? Exegesis isn’t my area, so I am not going to attempt it, but I would think that the place to look for your answer is in sermons and commentary on that parable.

8

Some months ago Tris made a post to one of the religion threads that burned a hole in my mind. He was speaking of a man he knew, who showed great love towards God and his fellow man, and who happened to be severely mentally handicapped. I can’t come close to reporting Tris’s eloquence in describing him, but the bottom line of Tris’s post was that this guy couldn’t manipulate the simplest of theological concepts but there was no question in his mind but that he was sincerely devoted to God and trying his best to follow Him.

That’s all He expects, in the long run. You’ve seen it in Micah, Isaiah, Paul, John, James, and above all in Jesus.

You are a born-again Christian – you are a part of the Mystical Body of Christ through baptism and grace. And, while people have a lot of fun poking ridicule at the apparent belief in magic underlying sacramental theology, the key point behind infant baptism is this: this child, incapable even of rolling over by itself, much less intentionally making a statement of faith, is brought before God and his ministers by parents who are determined to raise the child as a Christian. And God honors that intent, and accepts the child as His own, by adoption and grace.

At confirmation you renewed those vows intentionally and had hands laid on you by a successor of the Apostles for the gift of the Holy Spirit in your own lay ministry.

Then I would bet that since 1979 you have attended a fair number of services where Baptism and/or the Easter Vigil was the Liturgy of the Word. And right there you made the same affirmation that any evangelical would – communally to be sure, but you proclaimed Jesus as your Lord and Savior and promised to do His will, “the Lord being my help.”

There is something special about having a full-fledged conversion experience – Barb’s and my life changed when we had ours in 1984, because what had been the object of worship and study became a real Person to us, a Friend, Counselor, Lord, and Beloved.

But I think you only need one if you are headed the wrong way down the road – if you come to know Him as a part of reality and practice His Presence in your everyday life, you don’t need the bells and whistles of a Damascus Road experience to know Him and follow Him. Remember that Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of Christians, while Andrew simply got out of the boat and followed Him. But both are quite real experiences.

Too flipping many Evangelicals are more concerned with whether or not they’re going to “be saved” and what they need to do to get and keep their salvation, as if God requires a notarized statement of faith with three witnesses and the proper legal language in the contract for your salvation.

If one has faith in God – not meaning some doctrinal statement but the sort of trust that one person puts in another – then one can rest assured that He loves you and is saving you and causing you to grow in grace, every minute of every day, stop worrying about your own ultimate destination and start doing His will in the world that so badly needs it.

9

I never had that lightning bolt epiphany in the development of my faith. My take is that some people don’t need it and you may be one of them as I am. I was raised R.C. from birth until I was about six and then had what can be best put as a diverse religous background after that. I am born again but trying to pin down a “when” is a useless effort IMHO as it’s trying to pin down an emotional experience rather than a spiritual one.

10

This is going to be disjointed - and for that I apologize, I just can’t make it flow in nice, well-ordered paragraphs in my head.

The reason I was asking you to start this thread was more of a question to you and others (which in my experience was many of the Episcopalians and Catholics that I’ve met) whom I’ve always heard say that they were Christians, but weren’t “born again” Christians.

From my understanding, the term comes from John 3:3 - which reads “no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” (NIV) which, from my point of view, more or less means having decided to follow Christ’s teachings - which they seem to have done (from what I can tell by their words and actions). A grand conversion experience with an altar call, the four spiritual laws, and the sinners’ prayer (have I mentioned that those last two things drive me up the wall? but I’m digressing) is not needed. So I’m wondering why the rejection of the term? Does it mean something different to those groups?

What do they consider “born again”? And why?

11

what they mean to ‘Born Again’ To be ‘born of the spirit’ by becoming a new person in Jesus Christ. I believe that baptism is the public proclamation that you have chosen to follow Christ. You are symbolically washing away all your sins. Not really something that babies can choose to do.

John 3:5

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

Here’s a good summery

Doesn’t have to be fancy, you could hop off your chariot and dunk yourself in a pond, like the Ethiopian did in Acts 8:35-39(NIV)

"Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn’t I be baptized?” And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away,
and the eunuch did not see him again, but went
on his way rejoicing. "

Long answer to a short question. Thanks.

12

Yes, you are! :slight_smile:

It’s not about a specific date.
2 Cor 5:17 NIV----- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Gal 6:17 KJV ---- From henceforth** let no man trouble me**: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Just because someone is baptized and confirmed doesn’t make them a christian. You should know that, CJ.
Judging people does not make a christian.
Loving people does not make a christian.
Lot’s of people do all of the above.
You are a christian because you know that He is the one and only Savior, the one and only living God.
You are a christian because you try to live your life for Him the best you can.
You are born again because you once were not and now you are a child of God.
Eph 1:13 NIV------ And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
John 3:7 KJV----- Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

13

And Jersey Diamond and I agree word for word on a religion question!

This truly is a season for miracles!! :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

14

I’d say it’s THE essential thing that makes one a Christian. You know, the whole “Love thy neighbor” thing Jesus kept harping on.

15

Homey, you know darn’ well that she meant “by itself” – and that she knows as well as you that it’s key to a Christian walk. Trust me; I’ll vouch for the truth of what I just said.

16

Except for the fact that the word is Christian, not Lovian. What makes a Christian is accepting the salvation of Christ and being born again in Spirit. Nothing else.

17

For the love of Christ*, can we not turn this thread into another “Joe & Jersey vs. Everyone Else” pissing match over minutia?

I think it clear what Jersey meant, as Poly pointed out.

And Joe - your witness would (uh, IMHO) be a lot more effective if every time someone started on about “loving others” you wouldn’t drop by and poo poo the idea as much as you do. I’m not asking you to pretend that Buddhists are Christians, or whatnot - I’m saying that I don’t usually sense much enthusiasm from you for loving others, as evidenced by posts here**.

If either side would just give a little we might find some common ground here.

  • to those who believe, feel free to take this quite literally
    ** and you are correct, I do not know you IRL, so my perception of you may be incorrect. My apologies if this is so.
18

Love is very important!
Just thought I should make myself clear for anyone who doesn’t understand my post.
Thanks Poly :wink:

19

Let us come together to fight and curse in a Nicene battle over piddly shit. Or not. :slight_smile:

20

Well, here we go again. Thanks, CJ, for starting this thread. I have nothing much to add except a few comments on what others have said.

Polycarp:

Guilty as charged. I was raised in the Church of Christ, which I now regard as being in error from an excess of legalism, but I’ll never get over certain early indoctrinations. The Baptists aren’t Saved because they use a piano in church, you know. This was the style of thinking I grew up in, and parts of my family still practice. I reject the legalism, but some part of me, formed in infancy, really needs that notarized contract signed by God with proper witnesses. Hence some of my more neurotic posts worrying about my own salvation, which is not really a Christian emotion at all. I’m slowly learning.

BMalion:

Ah, but am I truly a new person? I feel like the old one. My legalistic tendency is to take words such as these, and construe them as excluding myself from salvation. I don’t feel like a new person, so I must never have been “born of the spirit”. I can’t jump off my chariot and be baptized in a pond, because I’ve already been baptized. Perhaps it didn’t “take”. I really envy the Ethopian’s experience.

Jersey:

When was CJ or myself, or anyone, not a child of God? At birth? This worries me. You don’t believe dead babies go to Hell, do you? If they go to Heaven to be with God, aren’t they his children, without ever having made a declaration of faith?

Joe:

I know what the first part means, and believe I have done that. The second part is troubling. How can one know one is “born again in Spirit”, and if I’m not sure about that, does that mean I’m not a Christian?

I mean no affront to anyone, and I’m sorry if any of my questions are tedious or betray anything terribly unpleasant. I’m just muddling along like everybody else. These are some of the issues I bring to the table. I make no claims that they’re valid, useful, or even worthy of discussion.