Less of a Christian?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by masonite *
**Polycarp:I’ll never get over certain early indoctrinations. **

You can’t but the Holy spirit can give you the grace to do so. keep praying!

**Ah, but am I truly a new person? I feel like the old one. **

God’s sanctifying work in us takes a lifetime, Paul did not write his letters the day he was saved on the road to Damascus.

** My legalistic tendency is to take words such as these, and construe them as excluding myself from salvation. I don’t feel like a new person, so I must never have been “born of the spirit”. I can’t jump off my chariot and be baptized in a pond, because I’ve already been baptized. Perhaps it didn’t “take”. I really envy the Ethopian’s experience. **

It’s OK to doubt. But, Read Phillipians 4 again. You can be baptized again if the first one happened when you were too young, or you really did not understand it. Baptism is not a nessesity to salvation, but why would someone who loved the Lord not follow his example?

**When was CJ or myself, or anyone, not a child of God? At birth? This worries me. You don’t believe dead babies go to Hell, do you? If they go to Heaven to be with God, aren’t they his children, without ever having made a declaration of faith? **

“No one goes to the Father except through me” John 14:6
Nobody ever goes to heaven apart from grace. Babies who die go to heaven by pure grace whether they understand it or not.

** I know what the first part means, and believe I have done that. The second part is troubling. How can one know one is “born again in Spirit”, and if I’m not sure about that, does that mean I’m not a Christian?.. **

No. Even the apostle Paul experienced struggle with sin throughout his life (Romans 7:7-25) We are living in constant battle with sin in our lives. Don’t give up! Fight sin and doubt by dedicating more time to prayer and try to spend less time at things that cause you to stumble.

One of the best ways to know if someone is ‘of the spirit’ would be to see if he/she has passed this test.
** These are some of the issues I bring to the table. I make no claims that they’re valid, useful, or even worthy of discussion. **

here are no stupid questions. and if you believe in Christ as your Lord, you ARE worthy of being written of in the Book of Life!

:slight_smile:

22

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by masonite *
**Polycarp:I’ll never get over certain early indoctrinations. **

You can’t but the Holy spirit can give you the grace to do so. keep praying!

**Ah, but am I truly a new person? I feel like the old one. **

God’s sanctifying work in us takes a lifetime, Paul did not write his letters the day he was saved on the road to Damascus.

** My legalistic tendency is to take words such as these, and construe them as excluding myself from salvation. I don’t feel like a new person, so I must never have been “born of the spirit”. I can’t jump off my chariot and be baptized in a pond, because I’ve already been baptized. Perhaps it didn’t “take”. I really envy the Ethopian’s experience. **

It’s OK to doubt. But, Read Phillipians 4 again. You can be baptized again if the first one happened when you were too young, or you really did not understand it. Baptism is not a nessesity to salvation, but why would someone who loved the Lord not follow his example?

**When was CJ or myself, or anyone, not a child of God? At birth? This worries me. You don’t believe dead babies go to Hell, do you? If they go to Heaven to be with God, aren’t they his children, without ever having made a declaration of faith? **

“No one goes to the Father except through me” John 14:6
Nobody ever goes to heaven apart from grace. Babies who die go to heaven by pure grace whether they understand it or not.

** I know what the first part means, and believe I have done that. The second part is troubling. How can one know one is “born again in Spirit”, and if I’m not sure about that, does that mean I’m not a Christian?.. **

No. Even the apostle Paul experienced struggle with sin throughout his life (Romans 7:7-25) We are living in constant battle with sin in our lives. Don’t give up! Fight sin and doubt by dedicating more time to prayer and try to spend less time at things that cause you to stumble.

One of the best ways to know if someone is ‘of the spirit’ would be to see if he/she has passed this test.
** These are some of the issues I bring to the table. I make no claims that they’re valid, useful, or even worthy of discussion. **

here are no stupid questions. and if you believe in Christ as your Lord, you ARE worthy of being written of in the Book of Life!

:slight_smile:

23

There is a verse in either 1st or 2nd John which says
“This is how they know you are a christian, when you love your brothers”.
Paraphrased.
But its true.
CJ, you obviously love not only your brothers but unbelievers too!

24

It’s in just plain John. :slight_smile:

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." — Jesus (John 13:35)

25

thanks, but John was never plain…
God’s love can be seen in you, Lib.

26

Children/babies are kind of like Adam and Eve. They do not know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. They do not have the capability to understand. As they grow, (or in Adams and Eve’s case, when they ate the forbidden fruit) they will be taught the way. If not taught by their family, it will be presented to them in some way. That is the reason for people spreading the Gospel, to make sure everyone knows. They will be given the opportunity to be children of God. That is when they make their choice.
Babies do not go to Hell. They do not know better, they are born into sin, but they obviously cannot comprehend these things, where as you and I do know better.
Babies cannot make a declaration of faith, we can…

In short, No.
If you are worried about weather or not you are saved, I think that is the Holy Spirit convicting your heart, possibly because you know you can be doing better. This does not mean you are not saved. This simply means that you want to do better for God and you are worried you are not doing your best. This in itself tells me that you should not worry and that you are a christian.
The one thing you have to remember is that you are human! We all make mistakes and we feel bad about them.

Once you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are born again.

John 1:12-13 NIV)---- Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-
{13} children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

John 3:36 NIV----- Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."
John 5:24 NIV----- "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 7:38 NIV----- Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."

27

That’s the main problem I have. I can’t remember a time when I wasn’t a child of God. I went to Sunday School, sang in Youth choir, and, perhaps as important, refused to give up a friendship when the popular crowd said I had to. Nine years ago, I formally rededicated to myself to Christ, but I won’t say I wasn’t a Christian before then. Among other things, it would be a disservice to the kids I taught Sunday School and otherwise befriended and guided before then, not to mention, this rededication took place a year after and as a direct result of one of those profound religious experiences I mentioned.

Amarinth, the reason I say I haven’t been “born again” is my understanding of the term entails a profound religious experience in the course of which one formally accepts Christ as one’s Saviour. The experiences I’ve had in my life don’t match that description, although some of them contain parts of it. I’ve heard people say that they weren’t a Christian or that they were a sinner before they were born again. If I do experience a Road-to-Damascus/born-again type experience at some point in the future, how could I say I wasn’t a Christian up until that point? As to being a sinner, I figure I’ve always been one and will always be one – it comes with being human, despite my best efforts.

BMalion, in my denomination’s tradition, infants are baptized, then, at some point in their teens, young people are confirmed, which means they formally accept Christ as their Saviour. In addition to those two, as I mentioned, I did a formal rededication, but that is highly unusual within my church, and very few people who weren’t present at it outside this message board know about it. This is one of the reasons why I wonder if I’m considered less of a Christian – because I haven’t undergone an adult baptism.

Jersey Diamond, believe me, I did my best to “let no man trouble me”, but it wasn’t easy (or possible?) when I couldn’t walk down a hallway without getting insulted and wasn’t getting any support at home, either. That silly business of human fallibility kept getting in the way.

CJ

28

So, of course, 4 posts got in while I was typing! I was wondering why the board was slow!

CJ

29

You don’t need to be blinded by a lightning bolt. Nor is it a requirement that angels sing in flaming clouds. Not to worry. We are to love the Lord with all our heart and soul and mind. Do not get swayed by the any lack of chrarismatic ectasy. Remamber the noble Bereans in Acts 17:20 who diligently studied scripture.

Don’t sweat the lack of adult baptism at this time. By the way, are you talking to a pastor or Godly man who can give you wise counsel? Not just on a message board but someone who knows you and your concerns? That’s more of a help than 10,000 emailed links.

Keep the faith.

Brian

30

Hell, steal the standard comeback. You weren’t born again; you got it right the first time.

31

If cjhoworth is not a ‘true Christian’ then all humans are lost.

[sub]and that is all I will say on the matter[/sub]

32

I don’t think it needs to entail that (as some others have said).

Like you, I don’t have a conversion story. I was raised in the faith - so there was never a time where I didn’t know about God & His love, and I don’t remember a time where I didn’t believe in Christ. Over time, I think I’ve come to understand more and better define my faith - but there was no path of deviant, horrible sin followed by a change of ways because there is just a limit to the amount of damage a reasonably normal toddler can accomplish.

Still, I think of myself as having been “born again” because of my beliefs. I think some people do have a bolt from the blue - but I don’t think that’s necessary for everyone.

33

I can’t point to a time when I was “born again.” I know that from childhood, I just knew I HAD been “born again.” I never had an experience like Paul’s, but I KNEW I had made that decision. And I know it NOW, with every fiber of my being.

There was a time, much too LONG a time, when I wasn’t in communion with Christ. But you know, even during that time, I never ever doubted my salvation. I knew I was breaking my Father in Heaven’s heart by my disregard for Him, but I always knew that for ME, His way was the RIGHT way. I never did anything all that BAD, I still tried to live my life with the love of Christ…but I was being a willful and stubborn “child of God” and wanted to do things MY way. I lost many years of heart peace that way, years I will NEVER get back. But all along the way, God was in my heart, quietly reminding me that I was excluding Him from His place in my life. It was always there, and it ticked me off at times…and God never lost patience with me, never “threw up His hands” and said “Okay, Cheri, you want to do it YOUR way? Fine. Goodbye.”

The parable of the Prodigal Son is very special to me, because I LIVED it. (Sort of) And it took my mother’s diagnosis of terminal cancer to bring me to a realization that for ME, going it alone without God wasn’t an option. I don’t know WHY He hung onto me so tenaciously, but He did…and I am eternally grateful.

Honey, other people’s conversion is OTHER PEOPLE’S conversion. Faith isn’t a matter of “You have to do THIS OR THAT, or it isn’t REAL…” It is a matter of what you know in your HEART and MIND is REAL TO YOU. It is a matter of grace…the grace of God, and the knowledge that you, personally, have embraced God’s grace. The gift of His son, in expiation for OUR sin.

Or that is what I think, anyway.

34

If you have a personal relationship with Christ and are certain that he is your Saviour, how are you not born again? Many people can’t point to some time and place, but as long as one grows in the love and wisdom of Christ, that is salvation. Heck, I was saved twice and neither one meant a thing.

Or in other words, I agree with almost everyone here.

35

Ok, now I’ll answer my part. I believe that one leads to the other. I think being “born in Spirit and truth,” as Jesus said, is God’s response to a person’s willful decision to place his faith in, and give his life to Jesus.

“Believing in Jesus” and “Loving Jesus” don’t (to me) have the same meanings as they would in standard English - they are more shorthand for what I said above: A conscious, willful decision to place your faith in Jesus and place your life in his hands. Satan believes in Jesus. He’s seen him and spoken to him. “Belief” and “Love” in the Christain sense mean conscious acts. They are, in the beginning, not passive like the standard definitions. I didn’t choose to believe in gravity, any more than I chose to fall in love with my wife. But you choose to place you faith in God, and you choose to love your fellow man. The involuntary feelings of belief and love follow out of the conscious acts eventually.

Even if you don’t have faith to move a mountain, choosing to believe - the initial act of faith, even if it’s something as simple as “I want to believe, please give me faith!” - prompts the response from God.

One caveat: I believe that the act of faith needs to be sincere. There are many people who hear the gospel, get excited, have emotional conversion experiences, and turn gung-ho for God, then get bored and quit. In these cases I think there is something wrong in the starting conditions. People can be too in love with material life, sex, personal desires, what have you, to take God seriously and really put their lives under his control. These are the people Jesus described in the parable of the sower.

Now this is where I get into the unpopular stuff. I believe that these conversions are not real. That “Yeah, I used to be a Christian” is never a true statement. Because the “conversion” process isn’t something you do. It’s a fundamental change in your nature. As Jerseydiamond quoted earlier, “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” That’s not the kind of thing that is undone. It’s a permanent change. Birth isn’t something that’s undone. When you are born of the spirit, you can’t be unborn. Your name is written in the Book of Life, period. I haven’t seen anything in the Bible to indicate that the Book of Life is full of eraser marks and white-out.

So, since I’m starting to ramble a bit, I’ll summarize:
[ul][li]Conversion is called being Born Again because it is a change the same magnitude as being born the first time. Your life and your nature are irrevocably changed, and it cannot be undone.[/li][li]Belief and Love are conscious, active choices, not emotions.[/li][li]That means that being born again (synonymous with saved) doesn’t have to be a big emotional experience, though it certainly can be and often is.[/li]You don’t have to feel saved to be saved.[/ul]

36

Very nice! I recall a song from about 20 years ago by Christian artist Don Francisco, the title of which says it all: “Love is not a feeling; it’s an act of the will.”

I think it’s important to bring up two points here: (1) That comment quoted above says nothing about the sincerity of the individual who claims to have been a Christian. I’m confident that anyone who claims to have been following Christ and to have “lost his faith” is telling the truth as he knows it. And, of course, that regeneration of the spirit may take time to “catch,” to become effective and evident in his/her life.

(2) As I pointed out to Diogenes over in the other Christianity thread that’s currently running here, God looks at things from an eternal perspective, while man is prone to focus on a particular point in time. I would guess that there are few if any Christians who have not at one time or another suffered from doubt, despair, anomie towards God… The thing is, He provides the strength to get one through the dark times. While most posters would regard “Footprints” as something of glurge, there is a very solid point underlying the sentimentality of it, as Paul would defend, in quoting God as saying in effect to him: “My strength is made perfect in your weakness.”

37

So love (conscious or otherwise) of your fellow man flows from the active act of loving Jesus?

Esprix

38

Poly, what is your take on babies dying and going to heaven as asked by masonite?

I was looking at some scripture which leads me to believe that babies do go to heaven. (of course this is my opinion)

David’s infant son dying 2 Samuel 12:23
John the Baptist was “filled with the Holy Spirit while he was in his mother’s womb” Luke 1:15

Ezek 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son–both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
(keep in mind, although we are born sinful, we, as intelligent beings, can repent; those who do not believe and will not repent die)

From some of the things you have posted in the past, I am under the impression that you believe that Everyone goes to heaven. Please correct me if I am wrong.
If that is that is the case, how do you reconcile other verses in the Bible that say the reverse?

If I am wrong, and you do believe that some will end up in Hell, IYO with scriptual evidence to back it, what determines this?

I realize that we are not God and anything you say will be just your opinion, but I am curious to see what you think.
IIRC, I think you don’t believe in a literal hell, is that correct?
Even if you don’t believe in a literal hell, I am still curious to know who (in general of course), IYO, will not make it into heaven?

39

That last post was mine…SORRY

40

When your heart aches, and you cannot see your life as a positive thing, and you don’t see yourself as a faithful servant of God, or beloved of Christ, you are not lost to Him. You have not stopped being a Christian because you are beset by the trials of the world. You are a Christian still.

When you are weak, and live as you know you should not, and do things that make you feel ashamed, you are a Christian still. When you have unseemly pride in your own being, and your own acts, and give credit to yourself, that is not yours in truth, you are a Christian still. You are a Christian sinner. The Lord is not unaware of your limits. He sees what you do, and what you think, and what you feel. He didn’t give you His love because you were perfect, and He doesn’t withdraw it because your imperfections show up again.

Born again into the spirit of God is an analogy, not a ceremony. The faithful child, who lives her entire life from a desire to be as the Lord wishes her to be isn’t a lesser Christian. She is the precious child of the Lord, and a delight to Him. She will be greeted with joy and celebration when she leaves this world, and joins Him in the next. We Prodigal Sons get our celebration here on earth, in a passionate moment of rebirth. CJ gets hers amid the glory of Heaven, with the company of every saint and angel in all of God’s creation. Hosanna, baby!

Tris