I agree with you. But what we’re talking about here are cultural issues and we probably don’t want to completely dismiss people’s opinions based on their occupation, religious beliefs, or for that matter, academic achievements (or lack there of). Especially since this is already a topic that is deeply politically divided.
This image has been doing the rounds:
I know which I would prefer to live in. (And notice it’s the one on the right that attacks people for who they are.)
Yeah, someone should definitely tell the Republican party to stop censoring words like Climate Change and stop creating safe spaces for white kids by banning teaching of some of our worst racial history.
So, would you really want to work in an environment where I could say, “Hey, toots, why don’t you make me some coffee.” “Oh, rough day, huh? You must be having your period.” “Wow! Your tits look great in that outfit!”
I looked up Greg Lukianoff and I was shocked to find out that he’s a straight white male with an advance degree. I’m sure he’s experienced all kinds of microaggressions and had to deal with people punching down at him.
What an excellent demonstration of the dishonest right-wing media machine (the image you’re sharing, I mean). The idioms on the left are still very common, and much more commonly used than the ones on the right. Any conflict here is manufactured.
I guess that makes it okay, then.
As others noted, that point you were trying to make was very weak tea.
Is that cut and paste doing the rounds, like the baseless 80% of people hating PC culture?
I guess, in some bizarro world. I think that avoiding making jokes about the disabled, for example, is exactly the same as pretending climate change doesn’t exist. I further believe that asking people to stop making racist jokes at work is equivalent to literally banning the teaching of the meaning of Juneteenth or the history of the Tulsa race massacre.
Not to mention the cherry picking. “Left were idioms that were popular in the 20th century,” my ass.
What idiom is more emblematic of American culture between 1901 and 2000: “Different strokes for different folks,” or “Whites only”?
What a lazy way to present your argument. No effort spent to discredit this… whatever-this-is. Every effort to discredit his gender, sexual preference, race and life experience.
I frankly can’t take some meme making rounds seriously. But your argument is not any better.
That meme was such obvious bullshit that I didn’t think it required any more of an effort. Feel free to argue against the cherry picking and strawmen in that meme if you’d like.
“It’s a free country…unless you’re gay or black. Or, you’re white and you want to marry a black person.”
“To each their own, except if you’re black and want to move to certain neighborhoods, or a woman who wants a credit card. Or, if you’re gay and you want to be a teacher.”
“Sticks and stones…, except if you called out Nixon on his policies, because then your show gets cancelled.”
“Who am I to judge, unless you’re gay and going to a gay bar that got raided, or you are doing things in the privacy of your own home, or you’re black and want to sit in an available seat in the front of the bus.”
What a bunch of utter bullshit, written by a guy who has only known privilege.
I wouldn’t like. And well done on the second try.
Thanks, but I probably should have said “…who has known only privilege” rather than “…who has only known privilege.” I think it flows better.
“The Pearlclutchers” would also work, though I can see many ways in which that might be misconstrued…
As mentioned, the one on the left is aspirational, and certainly didn’t describe the reality of the 20th century. I find a lot of those are FAR more true today, especially
“different strokes for different folks” and
“do your own thing”.
My employer is trying to improve the “diversity, equity, and inclusion” within the company, and just in the last couple of years it has become FAR easier for employees to actually swim with different stroke and do their own thing.
In contrast, the one on the right seems forced. As mentioned above, I travel in some pretty PC spaces, but I have never heard anyone irl say “white women white womening”, and I don’t even know what “Bropen Science” is supposed to mean.
I am a member of a Facebook group with a name like “alleviating toxic masculinity”, where people talk about (surprise!) issues around sexual expression. It’s mostly a pretty chill group where I feel safe asking awkward questions around trans issues. On good days, members even post stuff celebrating positive examples of masculinity, like Mr. Rogers using his vast privilege to make others welcome and included.
This reminded me of a list that was “doing the rounds” over thirty years ago:
I’m sure this one was produced with the same careful attention to detail and objectivity as the school discipline problem list was.
I Googled that one, because I’d also never heard of it. It’s a term used pretty much by one person, on Twitter, about three years ago, to describe an issue she had with some guys in the Open Science movement being sexist jerks.
In terms of obscurity, it’s about on par with putting “Hi, Opal!” on the list.
No, I wouldn’t. I haven’t been arguing for a free for all. What I’ve been saying in this thread is that there is a cost as well as a benefit to PC policing of language and ideas, and we should start taking that into account.
Those things you mentioned would bother me, but there’s a lot of stuff other women complain about - including on this board - where I could care less. However, I don’t generally pop up in those threads to say it doesn’t matter, and anyone who complains is just being over sensitive. It doesn’t bother me, but that doesn’t mean other women are wrong to be upset over it. People are different and have different experiences. I’d like to see the same understanding extended to those who are embarrassed over being corrected, or feel afraid to speak in case they say the wrong thing. Yet I never do. Just people saying “it doesn’t bother me”. It comes across pretty hollow to boast about your empathy when it’s applied so selectively.
Well to the extent that I even hear those terms, it is mostly on FOX et al trying to caricature other people’s positions.
Or put it this way: by American political standards I am very left-wing, however the only one of the terms on the “modern day” side of that diagram that I ever use is “punching down” and the only time I use it is in the context of “I don’t like humor that punches down” or simply “Don’t punch down”.
So yeah, the table is pretty stupid both in how it misrepresents 20th century idioms (as explained well by RitterSport) and contemporary ones.
So many ideas that I want to engage with in this thread but I’ll focus on just one and support it with anecdata.
I self-identify as a lefty. I live in an affluent, lefty part of a lefty city. All my neighbours are lefties. We are Guardian readers to a person and there are no Daily Mail readers within 3 leagues of here. We elect Lib Dems and Greens. We voted 80% remain.
But we are all getting a little older.
We experience a sense of loss when you try to change the culture around us. I believe this is what DemonTree is saying when you accuse him of defending the people who demand the right to use the N-word.
There’s a tendency, on the left, to accuse people who have doubts about the pace of cultural change of being no different from the people who still think blacks should sit at the back of the bus or to dismiss them as being brainwashed by Fox News. Maybe some of them are racists. Maybe some of them harbour unkind thoughts about immigrants but the vast majority of them want the same things that you want but the message that they hear from sentiments like these shared in this discussion is that they are not much better than racists.
The rhetoric that many of you use to defend these shifts in the culture is lazy and it is causing great harm to progressive causes everywhere.
I don’t think they are all going to run off and vote Tory as a result, but enough are that the prospect of a permanent conservative majority seems frighteningly real.
I don’t think their cousins across the Atlantic are all going to become Trump supporters either, but enough are to keep Republicans in power and most levels of government. I lost one friend who was red pilled. We don’t talk anymore. He is anti-racist as anyone I know but he is scared of the magnitude and pace of the changes.