Moment please.
“Milk Nazis” believe that breast milk is superior to formula and should be used almost exclusively.
“Feminazis” believe that women should have equal rights to men.
The actual Nazis systematically murdered six million men, women, and children.
I really dislike Nazi analogies. (“What? What are you, some kind of Language Nazi?”)
Matt:
I agree that the term “nazi” is an offensive analogy, but neither does it refer to the reasonable people you describe. I think “extremists” would be a better term. These are the people who denigrate anyone who does not exclusively breastfeed without regard to the physical, economic, emotional or other costs.
I feel that everyone should make a serious effort to breastfeed, but I also know that there are more cases than breastfeeding advocates would like to admit when it is just not worth the stress that it can put on everyone involved. When I was pregnant last, I joined a discussion group made up of women who had had or were having trouble with breastfeeding. The group grew very fast and believe me, the stories of pain and sacrifice many of these women endured would curl your hair. And still, a lot of them were beating themselves up for their “failures” years later. Where do you suppose they got the idea that they were failures?
A very good point, Matt. I prefer the term “lactivist” myself. 
And it leads me to something I was ruminating on this afternoon.
Several here have testified that LLL leaders or lactation consultants have “screamed” at them or others, have belittled their committment to breastfeeding for statements of formula support, or something similar. I have no idea as to the actual behavior of these people, but submit that it can be a difference in perception.
Hypothetical Situation #1 (inspired by an exchange posted here) – Distressed by perceived low milk production and difficulty getting baby to latch on, mother phones LLL. Leader arrives, offers suggestions. The leader knows that difficulties are real, but that they can be surmounted. Distressed mother knows that an easier route is to reach for the can of formula. Leader suggests that temporary inconvenience and discomfort to mother is worth getting through in order to provide baby breastmilk. Mother resents this, and ends up bottlefeeding. Later, the conversation is repeated that the leader was insistent, rude and belittling. Of course that may be true. But it could also be just as true that an informed breastfeeding mother (the leader) was merely trying to convince the mom what she knew to be true: Breastfeeding difficulties can be worked out. She didn’t want to hear it.
Consider this: women are willing to undergo temporary discomfort (pregnancy), pain (delivery), and other miscellaneous discomforts (postpartum weight gain, feeling frumpy and unsexy) in order to experience the joy of bringing children into the world. Why not continue this mothering selflessness into breastfeeding? After all, as many breastfeeding mothers can attest, after initital difficuties are overcome, nursing is easier, more convenient and cheaper than bottle-feeding formula!
Earlier in the thread, a poster (I’m sorry I forgot who) said that he was unwilling to risk his daughter to ‘prove’ that problems could be worked out. This I well understand! It’s scary when a newborn is screaming and won’t latch on! However if breastfeeding were the norm the moms out there having this problem would know it was a temporary one and seek and obtain the support to continue. La leche leaders and others (myself included) make themselves available to friends (or in the case of LLL, anyone in the community) day or night to help out a new mom. They do this because they sincerely want to help! Not because they get off on pushing people around.
Ellen said:
Huh? How do you know? If doctors and nurses are talking about how good breastfeeding is, then obviously there aren’t “entrenched feelings” against it. You can call it lip service, but frankly, that sounds like quite a rationalization on your part to try to explain away things that don’t agree with your preconceived notions.
“Push” how? It’s not up to the doctor to push a mother like that. Make suggestions, yes. Tell her what’s best, yes. But push, no.
When my first son was born, we decided to nurse, even though my wife didn’t personally like the idea at first. My son wasn’t getting enough milk, or wasn’t digesting it properly, or something that was causing him to lose weight. We tried lactation counseling, help from the nurses, etc. No luck. The doctor decided to supplement with formula, but use nursing still as the primary source. Still didn’t work. Eventually we had no choice but to switch him over to formula (Alimentum, a special formula, as it turned out) because it would otherwise have endangered him. When my second son was born, she was so scared she didn’t even want to try, and I can’t blame her (nor did the doctor). How, exactly, should we have been “pushed” more?
So what? Do you know what’s in the bottle? I know a number of people who bottle feed when outside the home, but that’s breast milk in the bottle. Don’t make snap judgments like that.
That would be me. And let me tell you, that child would latch on to the wall if you held her up to it. The problem was that my wife wasn’t making any milk. Nikki’s efforts to get milk anyway were quite forceful and enthusiastic–and extremely painful for my wife. I was the one in the household who most wanted her to breastfeed, but I was not prepared to perform an experiment to see how fast a baby can lose weight on an ounce a day.
I suspect that had my wife been provided the means to start pumping immediately after birth (my daughter’s birth, that is), then there never would have been a problem. As it was, by the time they got a breast pump to us, my wife’s breasts were, literally, hard as a rock and I think she was already starting to lose her milk.
For whatever reason, it was clear that my wife was not producing milk; rather, she was producing only decreasing quantities of colostrum.
However, with no information whatsoever, your statement pretty much assumes that she could have breastfed, we just weren’t doing it right. We just gave up too easy.
And you wonder why this inspires resentment?
All things being equal, breast milk is better than formula. However, all things are not equal for any family. Like everything else, the choice between breast and bottle involves trade-offs and individual values. It is a personal decision.
Sure, the more people who breastfeed, the better. And if you want to provide helpful information to parents, then you are providing a service. But helpful information includes helping to evaluate the tradeoffs, not blindly assuming that breastfeeding must be the decision at all costs. And not continuously implying that there is something wrong with parents who choose to bottle feed.
So, if you want to provide helpful information and advice to parents, then parents will thank you. However, if you and the LLL and others like you want to turn parents and their children into footsoldiers in some holy war against bottlefeeding, you should not be surprised when parents tell you to fuck off.
-VM
This subject among women is almost as polarized as abortion. The original OP reflected the tone that if a woman does not or cannot find her way clear to breastfed she is somehow doing her child harm or at the very least not providing for them like they should. To that I say BULLSHIT! Anyone with half a brain would realize that breast milk may be the better choice but many women who find themselves or even choose to be pregnant have to make choices that effect their child. Are you saying that if a woman cannot breast feed then she shouldn’t even opt to have a child? Then that would be a crock too! How is that any different than choosing to go back to work? Is there anyone here that would argue it is better for a woman to drag their tiny baby out to a sitter at 6 weeks or stay home with them?
Looks like the PC police are back, well tough! If a woman can breast feed then that is wonderful, but many women cannot for all types of ligitimate reasons, many of them stated here. Yes, it would be nice if women were more supportive of each other. But as this thread shows there isn’t much unity or help forthcoming for the many women who need this help, only condemnation!
Need2know…says get of your high horse and do something about it if you feel so strongly. But do it with kindness not that “holier than thou” attitude.
From the wonderfully intelligent, articulate people I’ve had the pleasure of reading on the SDMBs, I was hopeful this discussion could be frank and free from snarling and nastiness. But it seems a more open forum only means profanity is encouraged to emphasize a point. Sigh.
Needs2Know, I guess you haven’t been reading my posts and choose instead to make assumptions. *Need2know…says get of your high horse and do something about it if you feel so strongly. But do it with kindness not that “holier than thou” attitude. * and *But as this thread shows there isn’t much unity or help forthcoming for the many women who need this help, only condemnation! *
Where does that come from? Everything I’ve said is in support of making breastfeeding a cultural norm rather than a difficult, “great if you can do it, no big deal if you can’t” choice. I’ve pointed out that formula is a godsend when it’s needed, that I am involved in changing workplace policies to make pumping easier for working mothers, that I’ve offered (and given) breastfeeding help to friends day or night. Where do you see condemnation? A holier than thou attitude? PC?
As for this: *Are you saying that if a woman cannot breast feed then she shouldn’t even opt to have a child? * I’m guessing you mean my suggestion than women continue what they’ve sacrificed during pregnancy into beginning a nursing relationship. It’s called a logical argument, my dear: you know, if … then. I welcome any expected, planned or desired child into the world and would never presume to suggest anyone should or should not have a child based on breastfeeding! Other criteria, maybe (drug use, abuse, etc.) but strongly as I feel each child has the right to breastmilk and every mother the power to express this uniquely female power – I don’t think it’s the world’s be-all and end-all.
Early on here, I frankly indicated an interest in people’s perceptions of breastfeeding. Over and over again I suggest that cultural bias prevents more widespread acceptance of nursing and heartfelt sympathy when sincere efforts fail. Most of the attitude I see if from you.
The pro-breastfeeding/pro-formula issue varies by all sorts of factors. In my area (mid-atlantic) there seems to be a fairly strong pro-bf attitude. Might vary elsewhere, and probably has many factors.
Doctors: I do know a few people who have switched doctors because the doc didn’t have a CLUE as to bf - have to wonder about their other patients. A lot of in-between doctors, too - know some stuff, don’t know other stuff. that’s life. No doctor can keep up with EVERY study, though following the general recommendations of the AAP is nice for a start (ped of a friend of mine told her the AAP suggested weaning at a year, which is patently WRONG - ‘at least a full year’ isn’t ONLY a year…). three’s pretty solid evidence that doctors are NOT supporting as much bf as they ‘appear’ to be - or why would the AAP keep reiterating that the doctors need to be more proactive, avoid formula sample distribution, etc.? medicine is an ART, not a science (at least at the GP level), so you have a lot of variation in direction, intent, and execution. You have to be an advocate for your own health (and your child’s) at this point - don’t count on your doctor to be perfect - nobody is perfect. If you don’t get good help, good support, or good advice (as in, it doesn’t help YOUR CASE), try, try again.
Generational information differences/bias: Most of the women I know in my generation (25-35) have mothers who didn’t breastfeed, or who were given a variety of erroneous info about it. Therefore their support structures are either biased or lacking good info.
beleif in anecdotal evidence over scientific evidence: Many people have a tendency to think that anecdotal evidence is valid as a basis for decision-making. (I was fed formula, and I’m smart and healthy, therefore my child will not be less smart or healthy if they have formula). Scientific evidence is mixed - the studies can be biased either way, and some is just plain bad method. But there are plenty of good studies that show real differences between bf and non-bf children. Including IQ. (of course, that’s only about 8 points difference IF you breastfeed more than 8 months… and check the IQ threads for the accuracy and usefulness of IQ indicators!) Of course, statistics applies to populations, not individuals, so you will indeed find healthy smart formula-fed kids, and sickly, low-IQ breastfed kids, but I’m not about to curtail decent research because it makes someone feel guilty. (besides, you can’t run the alternate experiment on an individual, so you don’t know the REAL individual impact of either choice - hence the reliance on statistics.) Lets skip bashing the research for the moment, because we all know that breast is normal/best (even if we disagree over the full details).
bad timing of information reciept. It is my opinion that a lot of doctors are not so much anti-breastfeeding, as habituated to the process of handing out samples, offering the advice based on the info they have AND their experience, and so forth. From the MD perspective, experience shows that women who are struggling and miserable are happier when they switch to formula. Now, women who get the support and help they need to KEEP breastfeeding, WHEN THEY NEED IT, are also happy, but that is often NOT at the doctor’s intervention level, so it has little impact on their practice (and hence can’t change it much). Most of the ‘helpful advice’ (that was actually helpful) I’ve encountered happened over the internet/web, or by family or friends supporting, or some nursing mothers’ association member helping. Some good help from LCs, too, but also some rotten advice (got blisters because mine messed up). However, much of the destructive advice was also non-professional. Often it is only when women get to the utter desperation point that they turn to the doctor - and it may be too late to fix the problem easily, so forumla supplementation at that point can be the better option. After getting that much releif from their desperation, it would take a stubborn woman to go back. This is just my experience, feel free to disagree.
preconceptions about members of either ‘camp’. If you know people who got slammed or pestered, that’s how you see the people who offer advice non-pro (extrapolating from a single data point seems to be common with that high-hormone pre/post-preg phase - I know I caught myself doing it a LOT). If you know people who got loving supportive constructive advice, it seems absurd that anyone had so much the opposite experience. Again, human nature. because breastfeeding has become the first publicly visible choice a mother makes about her child, it is the first place a woman also feels she is getting JUDGED. (Even if others are NOT judging, ask any new mom - they are kinda paranoid. I know I was…) So it is also reasonable to be a bit reactive about anyone else’s attitude. Honestly, I haven’t gotten more than curious looks anywhere I’ve publicly breastfed, even with a toddler.
Assumptions about breastfeeding info being complete and relevant. Certainly every mom I know is pretty much plowed under by the weight of pro-bf info out there. But how to filter it appropriately for their own use? It is easy to assume that you have the info you need, given how MUCH info you have. But if that doesn’t fix your problem, what then? With new moms in particular, there’s the compounding hormone-influenced conflict between “I’m okay, I can do this myself” and “HELP, I’m a failure at motherhood!” Which can lead to asking for help too late for the help to be really helpful - especially since it often takes more than a phone call to get the exact help you need. If you thought you had all the info there was, when you find a problem that doesn’t fit, it kinda makes for a feeling of hopelessness, or a mistaken beleif that if you just stick with it a little longer, things will get better on their own.
Expectations about alternatives to nursing. I ‘met’ a woman one day when I was pumping at work (in the bathroom, whee), who recognized the sound of the pump and asked how old my child was. Turned out she was from Sweden, and she has an actual breast deformity that prevented her from nursing (the compression chambers are too far back in her breast) and the doctor just immediately set her up with a custom pump kit. She pumped for 6 months each for two kids. It was what she EXPECTED to do if she had a problem where she couldn’t nurse. When she moved to the US, she was stunned that here, the expeted response to problems nursing wasn’t pumping, it was formula. In her mind, formula was for women who couldn’t produce milk AT ALL, under ANY conditions. And with a good pump and good support, plenty of women who can’t nurse (for whatever reason) CAN supply their own milk. We just don’t EXPECT to do that in the US, so it seems an unreasonable demand.
Beleif that your instinct somehow make you a perfect mom, and if you AREN’T you’ve somehow failed a basic test. Women in the US are somehow under the impression that they don’t need to LEARN to be moms, that somehow instinct will cover all contingencies, or at least that plus a few thick books on babyhood. Therefore if we don’t get it perfect, we have already FAILED as WOMEN, not to mention mothers. (I’ve heard women refer to ‘failure’ to breastfeed as failing the ‘first test of motherhood’!) This is bull, and damaging bull, to boot. Other women have to learn it, so do we. Instinct is a lovely help, but we have to learn new stuff about us and baby at the same time, and it seems ridiculous that we think we can do it solo.
Quite a combination of factors - but I think getting the right info at the right time is the most critical, and that means having effective and informed support people who you trust and can turn to quickly and easily.
Examples: sorry, this is getting too long as it is, so if you want detailed examples, ask, and I’ll post them - suffice it to say that my son had oral aversion, and my mom knew how to handle it. My SIL had an oversupply, and her mom had the same thing - but had been told her milk was too thin, and so SIL switched to formula because her baby was losing weight fast (afterall, thin milk runs in the family). Another friend’s daughter also had oral aversion, but I didn’t know it, so mom switched to formula rather than deal with utterly agonizing nursing sessions (baby was a chomper).
I don’t encourage women to breastfeed, per se. I encourage them to learn about it, and to establish a support system before they start - just for handling all the new stuff a mom must learn, breastfeeding aside. I also tell women that no LC or LLL leader or OB has all the answers, so if the answer doesn’t help, KEEP ASKING AROUND. (That also helps get past the whole ‘LLL leaders are mean bitches’ thing - you’ll find some good ones even if the first one was a loss.) And, I suggest they ask for help as soon as they feel uncertain, not when they are in tears of desperation at 3 AM. No harm in checking, right? (Unless you think that somehow you MUST be perfect… in which case, I suggest therapy or a reality check.) Or, you could always call the hospital nursery - they are already awake at 3 AM anyway. Don’t expect to be perfect at this -it is a learning experience. Be willing to look for alternatives between the ends (partial supplementing is probably a healthier choice than weaning completely, for example, and lots of women don’t even think of it).
And if you made the right choice for YOUR CASE, given the info and support YOU had, why the HECK are you feeling guilty? If you need a salve for your guilt, try providing for other women the info that might have helped you, so someone can learn from your experience. Guilt is only a spur to action - don’t let it sit; DO something constructive with it, and you’ll feel a lot better (maybe those nasty LLL folks you’ve encountered could use some training in communication skills - worth a try, anyway).
I think my advice is held up by the success of post-partum home-visit programs like the one in Philly. Nurses do home visits repeatedly in the first week home (primarily for people in high-risk categories), BEFORE most problems are out of hand. Breastfeeding success rates go up, and child abuse goes down… all because they are getting the info they need for THEIR situation, before it is too late. These nurses know all the resources to hook people into, so there’s some kind of immediate support system, as well.
I’ve pretty roundly scolded women who roll their eyes at women who formula feed for ANY REASON. You’d better DAMN well get their story first, and maybe offer some commiseration, because I have yet to find someone using formula who didn’t have a tale to tell. (and I agree on the ‘is is breastmilk or is it formula?’ - hard to tell from a distance…) MAYBE you’ll find someone who really doesn’t love their child, or can’t be bothered to inconvenience themselves (really), but they’re a bit more rare than you’d think. A little walking in their shoes is ALWAYS called for, and compassion goes a lot farther towards making people feel like MAYBE trying it the next time. I’d rather be effective in the long run than holier than thou. (Gosh, I hope that doesn’t come across as holier than thou…)
Oh, and by the way, my only credentials are surviving the first near-6 weeks of nursing and keeping with it - and working 11+ hour days - for 2 1/2 years. And no, I don’t think it is abnormal to nurse a 3 yr old. Unusual in the US, but because nursing is a HUMAN behavior (not an American behavior), and the immune system isn’t complete until about 5-7 years old, and breastmilk contains immune factors that support continued immune development in the child (which actually INCREASE after 2 years old), it isn’t pathological. Besides, since breastmilk is a healthy PART of a balanced toddler diet (according to my pediatrician), at least I know he’s getting SOME decent food input - ever see a toddler eat??? (or not, as the case may be) I certainly never thought I’d nurse this long, but it works for us. (And isn’t ‘what works’ for a particular case the basis of defending mothers who had to switch to formula? Don’t go name calling either side, please. Try to keep as open a mind about one side as the other.)
Phew. Sorry for the endless post. I tried to make it shorter, but I didn’t have time to edit significantly.
Ellen:
I don’t see a “high horse” attitude in any of your posts. However, I can understand where some of the resentment is coming from. As you have pointed out bf advocates have a lot of misinformation to try to set right in this society. However, I think this has sometimes led to going too far in the other direction. Smartass’s story reminds me a lot of my own situation with my first baby. Although I got engorged on the 3rd or 4th day and was told my milk would be there, it never was–pumping every two hours with a hospital-grade electric pump brought absolutely nothing.
I took this problem to every consultant I could find and was greeted, basically, with disbelief. The party line is that all women have enough milk and if you aren’t getting it it’s because you are doing something wrong. I can understand why they do this: It was the norm for women of our mothers’ generation to be told that they didn’t have enough milk and that formula was better. But knowing this doesn’t help when you are sitting in the breastfeeding support group with the stupid tubes hanging around your neck listening to all the other women talking about leaking and spraying and pumping six ounces at a time.
I think people that are crusading for breastfeeding are doing an admirable thing, but a lot of times crusades become too single-minded. The way we are going to get back to being a breastfeeding society is by dealing with one mother and her babies at a time–as individuals.
Ellen said:
These aren’t preconceived notions, David, they’re facts. You asked me to provide them and I did. To reiterate: The American Academy of Pediatrics says that 21 percent of mothers are still nursing their children by the time they reach the age of 6 months. Think about it: is it likely we’d have survived as a species if 80 percent of human mothers were unable to provide nourishment for their children? If doctors and nurses were actively advising mothers to breastfeeding and putting resources behind it, there would be more mothers breastfeeding. But resources, as I’ll explain further below, go into making sure mothers get hooked on forumla.
I have read estimates on how many women truly cannot produce enough milk (through some disorder) and it’s low. (If you require it, I shall dig them up.) Other problems are also “legitimate” – past sexual abuse, for example. Some medications are incompatible with nursing, but many fewer than is commonly suspected (as I believe has already been pointed out by someone other than me).
OK, I agree with that. “Push” is not the correct terminology. But remember my analogy to smoking? Physicians advise pregnant women not to smoke. Yet some undoubtedly do not take that advice. I guess what I was getting at is, doctors should take the same attitude with nursing: For the sake of you baby, nurse him or her. The word of a doctor is a strong endorsement.
Consider the words of the American Academy of Pediatrics to this country’s pediatricians: (from the abstract of this publication Breastfeeding and the Use of Human Milk (RE9729)*This document summarizes the benefits of
breastfeeding to the infant, the mother, and the nation, and sets forth principles to guide the
pediatrician and other health care providers in the initiation and maintenance of breastfeeding. The
policy statement also delineates the various ways in which pediatricians can promote, protect, and
support breastfeeding, not only in their individual practices but also in the hospital, medical school,
community, and nation. *
I call it lip service, David, because doctors may talk a good game about breastfeeding, but what do they do? They give the mom a free can of formula and provide her name to the formula companies so that she can be bombarded with free cases of it as well as discount coupons.
No, I don’t think you should have been pushed more. It sounds to me like you did everything you could. I’m really sorry your wife couldn’t breastfeed. I really am! Despite what Needs2Know thinks, I’m not out to inspire guilt … only to point out that with a shift in perception and practices, more women will sucessfully breastfeed and more humans will be healthier for it.
So what? Do you know what’s in the bottle? I know a number of people who bottle feed when outside the home, but that’s breast milk in the bottle. Don’t make snap judgments like that.
[/QUOTE]
It’s not a snap judgment, OK? I am a fulltime working mother. When my son was still nursing and cared for by others, he drank the milk I expressed while at work, in a bottle. Therefore, I realize this is done.
But David, is this the majority of bottles in the universe? Are you willing to counter me by saying most of these bottles are filled with breastmilk? The formula industry is a billion-dollar one. That stuff is going in a bottle somewhere.
cher:
I’ve been thinking about this over the past couple of days, and it occurs to me that America is nothing like Iran, nor should it be. I’m assuming here that you’re not suggesting new moms in America should be forcibly sequestered with their female relatives.
I understand your point: with adequate female guidance and support, most anyone can learn to breastfeed successfully. Fortunately and/or unfortunately, American women lead an entirely different lifestyle. Many of us must work long shifts, full time. Most of us don’t have a ready source of assistance: it’s you and the baby’s dad on your own, or just you on your own. Yes, it is possible to breastfeed when your a single mom and working 60 or 70 hours a week. It is more difficult. (I’ve never been a single mom; as difficult as mom-hood is for me, I can’t begin to appreciate how hard it is without a husband.)
As far as frugality goes, I agonized over the cost of formula. I was the mom who raised all three kids with cloth diapers, even when I had two in diapers at the same time. That is a lot of extra work. I would have loved to breastfeed all my kids, but I hated it enough to want to poke my own eyes out first.
Despite the obviously factual evidence that shows breastfeeding is best, I doubt it makes too much difference in the end. Look around you. Look at your best friend. Can you determine who’s been breastfed and who was fed by the bottle? (“Todd’s facial muscles are just a tad slack. I wonder if he was bottle-fed?”)
Holly:
Believe me I know that American women’s lifestyles are different and I’m not advocating Iran as a model society in any way whatsoever. I just found that story to be an interesting contrast to American women’s experience.
However, I think we would be more successful at breastfeeding with more family support and less oppressive work schedules. I couldn’t afford to take any of my unpaid FMLA leave–what a joke. I saved up 4 weeks of regular leave and used up a week of it waiting for a hospital room to open up, because I needed an induction (another story.) Fortunately, my work situation is fairly flexible and I was able to work at home part time for a while. I also have a private office and so was able to pump in a clean and private place when I did come back.
I really take my hat off to women who can sustain pumping on the toilet in the employee bathroom with a supervisor breathing down their necks if they don’t get back from their 15 min. break in time.
I’m gonna go ahead and throw $.02 into this.
As the OP noted, breast-feeding is GENERALLY better than bottle feeding for infants, but the boons of one or the other are generally fairly minor. Ease of digestion is one, lower rates of disease in the first 6 mos is the other biggee (after which time the baby’s immune system largely takes over). As far as I am aware there is no evidence to support a link between breast-feeding an higher IQ, though I would be happy to peruse any empirical articles you could supply a reference to.
My understanding is that the medical profession is behind breast-feeding, but I have not had the experience first hand.
One thing I did want to mention, perhaps is contrast to the OP is that there is some psychological evidence regarding some detrimental effects of prolonging breast feeding past the “natural” weening time. I think the original post suggested breast feeding could continue for as long as mother/child wished. Now empirical evidence actually suggests that children who are breast fed past infancy (I have heard cases of many 4-5 yos, and as old as 11) tend to develop too close and attachment, neediness, sometimes aggressiveness. Also linked with Dependent Personality Disorders. I’m not saying ALL kids who continue to be breast fed develop such, just a higher at-risk. Of course some parents like their kids to be clingy, so long as you don’t mind them still living in the home when they are 45.
I concede that I may have become a little touchy about this subject. I am one of those victims of a non-supportive system. When I told my OB/GYN that I was going to breast feed my first child he said…That’s nice. Other than srubbing my nipples hard in an attempt to toughen them up I did little research on the subject thinking that it would come naturally. I won’t go into the miserable details of my failed attempt at breast feeding but it has left me with a certain amount of guilt. Guilt too because when my second child came along I didn’t even try. He became sickly for the next 2 1/2 years, another guilt trip. Why must I feel guilty? In all fairness to myself I have been on most occasions the best mother that I can be.
I do appreciate the posts from those women who recognize the problems inherent with modern women and breastfeeding. It’s all very true. The only people that knew how to help me were the hospital nurses, they were wonderful and compassionate. But once I was home my sweet little girl and I were back on our own again. We only lasted 3 three weeks. Then it took the better part of a year for my milk to dry up. I did not find breastfeeding a pleasure or even a very good experience for bonding with my child. It was a miserable struggle. There I admitted it. I hated it.
I just don’t think it’s fair to criticize other women for choosing not to breastfeed. If it is as difficult and stressful as my attempt then you and your baby are better off with the alternative. At least your relationship is not fraught with tension over something as basic and necessary for your child as receiving their very nourishment. (By the way my little girl was always as healthy as an ox, she started walking around the coffee table at 6 months. She never got sick until her first year of day care when she was 3.)
Need2know
Avalongod, can you give the cite on attachment disorders and extended bf? Hey, if I’m screwing up my kid, I want to know.
I’ll be back with my refs for positive social development related to longer bf later (probably tomorrow - I have stuff to do), but so far, my son doesn’t seem terribly attached/dependent. I usually get comments about how independent and confident he is. I wonder if the problem is not so much the actual nursing, but if the parents are doing something else along with the nursing. For instance, I know one mom who nursed her daughter until she was 6 (though the end of that was pretty much a ‘in emergencies only’ thing), and she is a very normal child. I certainly can’t see anything that indicates she’s peculiarly dependent or has any personality disorders - so far. I also know a woman who plans to extended breastfeed, and also cannot be separated from her child for ANY reason, cannot imagine leaving him with a sitter, EVER, thinks it is peculiar to let toddlers run around loose (he doesn’t get to explore) and so forth. THAT, I can see causing some serious problems… but which behavior is easier to measure? the tendency to extended nurse may be correlated to other behaviors that cause weird attachment problems, but if you are really working it out between you, paying attention to your child’s requests and needs, I can’t see it being the source of the problem. (As in, I like child-led weaning, but there are LIMITS based on reality and the fact that we are a family and everyone has to compromise sometimes.) Once you start losing common sense, you start setting up some major problems elsewhere. Some parents are drawn to extended bf becuase of their own needs. I know a lot of others who are just doing it because it seems to work. lets guess which people have more normal kids.
This reminds me of one terrible study that showed that formula feeding caused lower levels of maternal-infant bonding. It is the closeness and the manner in which you handle feeding that establishes bonding (the nursing rush is a help, but not absolutely necessary), not the container. yes, it might be easier to do non-bonding behavior if you have a bottle instead of using your body - and it might be more likely that you’ll be uninterested in breastfeeding if you aren’t interested in your baby anyway. But correlation isn’t causality. There is no measurable CAUSE there, only a relationship (at least with that study - and I know plenty of moms who use formula and bonded well, and at least one where stopping breastfeeding was essential to bonding, given how much pain she was in).
How you handle it is more important, don’t you think?
Anyway, that’s my thoughts. However, maybe we should do a separate thread on extended nursing. Or maybe another time - I’m here too much as it is!
avalongod:
Read here: http://www.mc.uky.edu/mcpr/news/1999/September/breastfeeding.htm This is a press release from the University of Kentucky entitled “UK Study: Breast-feeding Increases Babies’ IQ.” The study was printed in the October issue of The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Link here: http://www.ajcn.org
(I wish someone would tell me how links are done on this board! I know html but it doesn’t work here for some reason.)
I’ve never heard this. In fact, I hear the opposite. Katherine Dettwyler, an anthropologist and researcher at Texas A&M University, is an expert you might be interested in reading. Here is a link to her site: http://www.Prairienet.org/laleche/dettwyler.html You may want to read this article: http://www.Prairienet.org/laleche/detwean.html which is entitled “A Natural Age of Weaning.”
Needs2Know – I understand, I really do. My advice, for what it’s worth, is don’t feel guilty! A mother who has done everything she can for her children has nothing to feel guilty about. Again, I submit if we all shifted our focus and made breastfeeding a normal priority (as apparently it is in Sweden! 
) mothers would indeed do all they could, be supported by everyone in breastfeeding and if something went wrong, you’d know you did all you could and could go with formula guilt-free. (I’m not suggesting that going with formula should be laden with guilt. I’m trying to make a point only.)
avalongod–
According to Katherine Dettwyler, PhD: Studies have shown that a child’s immune system doesn’t completely mature until about 6 years of age, and it is well established that breast milk helps develop the immune system and augment it with maternal antibodies as long as breast milk is produced (up to two years, no studies have been done on breast milk composition after two years post partum.)
This is taken from the natural age of weaning article cited above.
Hedra:
I do actually think that is a plausible hypothesis you mentioned…namely that those mothers who tend to engage in excessive breast feeding may also do other things that actually bring on the dependent personality. If you continue breastfeeding yet, otherwise get your child doing independent stuff, the effect could be blunted. Please note too in my original post, I did mention it was a general trend and did not reflect the circumstances for all children (nonetheless you came right back with your personal anectdote)
To Ellen, I did check out the posts you have and I appreciate them. I hope you won;t mind if I point out some critical flaws however:
Related to breast feeding and IQ…the scolding I got from hedra also applies to this…namely that it may not be breast feeding causing this IQ boost, but rather that mothers who choose to breast feed (and perhaps are more nurturing) may also give their children more support/modeling/learning opportunities which actually boost IQ. Also there are the methodological problems associated with measuring infant IQ (generally highly unreliable). and finally, that study was a “meta-analysis” which are generally accepted only with caution. As you may know research which does not find positive findings is unlikely to be published. Meta-analysis represents a summing of available literature…and may be subject to a “file-drawer” problem…by which negative findings are not part of the study.
In regards to Dr. Dettwyler, I did find her results interesting, although some are based on the same IQ stuff, and suffer the same methodological problems, and also she relies a bit on some analog primate studies which are probably lacking in external validity. Still, I am willing to concede in appropriate cultural circumstances, extended breast feeding could work, however in the US it tends to be associated with Dependent PD (I am not saying your kids, hedra or Ellen have DPD, just that this is a general trend). I am a bit lazy to go looking up the references, as I must go teach soon, although I would invite you to peruse PsycheINFO for some.
Avalongod, what is the ‘natural’ weaning age? there’s certainly a lot of disagreement about that already, so do you have a definitive statement on that, as well?
Thanks!
didn’t intend to bash with my anecdotes, just show that I’ve seen a range, and didn’t have a cite for thinking that the relations might be correlated instead of causal, just a thought. I’ll see if I can find your study as refd, so i can see what they designate as ‘normal’ - I know a lot of studies vary dramatically in what they consider normal - from 6 months to 2 years, if I recall right (AAP reccomendation, or WHO?). Sorry if it came out as a smack, it was intended to be a little more gentle than that. (oops)
The study I saw on IQ was a NZ study, longitudinal(?), covering kids I think to grade 4. The IQ difference was statistically significant only for those nursed over 8 months, and even then, only just so. I don’t remember what the controlled factors were (I believe education and income were controlled, but I don’t remember what else), but I do recall the conclusion being open to allowing that other factors might be causal or at least contributing. Personally, I can think of one other correlated behavior that might apply - pre-birth bonding, which both leads to higher birthweight (possibly by encouraging moms to be more careful with prenatal care), and ALSO tends to correlate to more successful nursing relationships, so IQ could then be related to better prenatal care… So, yep, I’ll drop IQ from my list of bonuses, but keep it on the correlated list. Good point. (lemme see if I can find that cite…)