Bricker: Got A Second?

The BBQ Pit
1

*Oh, that way madness lies; let me shun that.

William Shakespeare, “King Lear”, Act 3 scene 4*

I like to think that, in the 5 years or so that we’ve been on this board, we’ve developed an online friendship. I find a vast majority of your posts insightful, intelligent, well-reasoned, and genuine. You have the courage of your convictions, but are also willing to admit when you are wrong. Aside from your foray into the evils of criminal defense work, I have nothing but respect for you. In short, I admire you and I think this board is a better place with you here.

But…

Of late, your posts, as well as the tone of your discussions, have seem to have taken a much more troubling tone. It seems to me, more and more, you are willing to engage in partisan sniping, backhanded insulting, and intolerant ranting. Now, it could simply be a matter of perspective, but it seems to me that the level of you posts has somewhat lessened in the last few months. I wanted you to know that, at least in my eyes, you’re heading down a road that leads to Stoidsville, Diogenestown, SamStoneburgh, Milum Heights, and Aldebaran Hills. Those are not destinations that I think you want to go to.

Here are some recent threads/posts that have caught my attention:
A thread in which you seem to notice what I’m talking about.

In this thread the last two sentences of your OP are in there for the sole purpose of pushing the buttons of the liberal fringe.

A rant vaguely disguised as a Great Debate.

and, of course, the I Told You So thread

Now, I can understand your apparent desire, as a definite minority on this board, to snipe at the idiot liberals on the board. I can understand the feeling of being vindicated by the election, and reveling, for awhile, in the victory of your viewpoint. While I may disagree with you on many issues, I’ve always thought you avoided, in the past, of stooping down to the level of the shrieking partisans.

But recently, you seem to be heading that way. I could, of course, be wrong, but I thought I should say something about it before you drift away into irrelevance.

2

I figure he’s about a week from december.

Enjoy,
Steven

3

FWIW, I’ve felt the same way. In fact, I’ve felt lately like there’s nobody in Great Debates with whom I can have a civil disagreement, and so I’ve been avoiding it. I wish that weren’t so.

Daniel

4

Let’s not insult Sam Stone. Sam Stone rocks. Bricker is just an ass whose hobby, at least lately, seems to be making meritless accusations that anyone who disagrees with him is, by definition, a hypocrite. I’ve yet to see him come up with coherent reasoning to support a position. Legal argument, yes, but nothing to support his line of thinking.

5

I was agreeing with the OP, not with Mtgman. Bricker’s a week from December only in the sense that we all are about a week from December.

Daniel

6

If it’s any help, I see Bricker and Stoid as opposite sides of the same wooden nickel.

I’m sure they are both nice, decent folk IRL, but I’ve been praying to the dark gods that their hard drives erupt in rivulets of molten slag.

7

Let’s just establish right off the bat that some conservative posters (and many liberal ones) on this board are just pure loons.

I’ve not found Bricker to fall into this category. Disagree with the man all you want to, his arguments are nearly always worth a listen. I find myself, obviously, agreeing with him more often than not.

I believe he articulates his points in a far more effective manner than I could hope to, so I shudder to think how you all feel towards me.

8

Seconded. Sam is about the most consistently polite and reasoned of all the Straight Dope’s posters, particularly given the grief he often comes in for.

9

Sam Stone has no place being in the same category with the rest of the jerks listed in the OP.

If Bricker has been changing his tone lately I would suggest it is simply in response to the changing face of the board. The SBMB is more like the Democratic Underground forums every passing day.

Some posters, such as Scylla just up and leave for a while. Others such as myself just find ourselves posting less and less. Maybe Bricker finds himself doing a bit of sniping.

I don’t think it’s our reaction to the decline of the SDMB that is the problem. Stoid, Diogenes and Aldebaran are all wackjobs who would never be taken seriously by any reasonable person. That they have become basically mainstream of the SDMB is very disturbing. It’s only natural that there be some reaction to it by the more reasonable posters.

10

I don’t know, his recent diatribes on the media, throwing out something and framing the “debate” along the lines of “why the hell haven’t you denounced this obscure crap you’ve never heard of” seems fairly similar. Plus the joke worked on so many levels. Firstly his behavior is becoming december-like, secondly there was the joke about the time of year, thirdly exactly the level you noted. We’re all a week away from both December and from becoming december. It is up to us all to fight against the tendancy to lash back and degenerate the level of discourse. We’re more than talking points here and smearing each other with the feces produced by the worst examples of every end of the spectrum is a downward spiral.

Enjoy,
Steven

11

In support of Bricker, he does posess one thing many of the resident partisan hacks lack: in-depth knowledge of a politically pertinent subject (the law). He’s made (and continues to make) excellent posts because of that. That goes a long way towards excusing an occaisonal partisan attack, in my book. Hell, being a conservative on the SDMB goes a long way towards excusing snide partisan remarks–there’s a group of very liberal, very shrill, very verbose, and occaisonally very irrational posters that can pile on an opposing viewpoint with all the tact and civility of a pack of dogs taking a liquishit in one’s living room.

12

Another vote to keep Sam out of the equation. And while Bricker might have surprised me a few times as of late, I’m nowhere near giving up on him yet.

13

Funny, that was said a lot about december, too.

14

Actually, this is how I’m used to feeling about him: he’s normally presented some of the strongest arguments in favor of conservative causes, and has really gotten me to think about where I stand on such issues as school vouchers, how to advance equal rights for same sex couples, and the like. Moreover, he’s shown a willingness to change his mind when confronted with strong arguments, something vanishingly rare on the Internet or in real life, and a trait for which I have tremendous respect (especially considering how difficult I myself find it :slight_smile: ). To top it off, he has traditionally remained very civil, even in the face of what I consider unwarranted attacks.

It’s this last that has been lacking lately, IMO: his attacks have been, while not personal, still overbroad and snide in a way that I find unnecessary, in a way that makes me uninterested in responding.

Again for what it’s worth, Mr. Moto, I have a lot of respect for your posts, too. Although I’ve disagreed with you more than once, sometimes in ways that I’m sure raised your ire, I don’t recall any ugly exchanges between us; and you put forward your beliefs in a civil and open-minded fashion that I really appreciate. I’ve never felt that you were just parroting the latest conservative blog, and I’ve nver felt that you were defending someone for partisan, rather than principled, reasons.

I don’t want to act like I’m some sort of arbiter separating the Good Conservatives from the Bad Conservatives. I’m obviously not. It’s just that you two specifically have made this board better for me, inasmuch as I rarely in real life get to have in-depth discussions about politics with conservatives.

Daniel

15

I could be wrong about this, because I don’t generally follow the political threads with as much interest as many of the rest of you. But during election time, I followed a few.

My take on this is that lately, Bricker has been suffering from a case of Fed Up. Once again, I could be wrong about this. However, this election was especially stressful and hostile, and this is a left-leaning board, and Bricker has put in a lot of energy (and if I recall correctly from some of his statements the “I Told You So” thread) has been getting a fair share of pile-ons and engaging in a lot of lopsided debates (a handful of conservative posters vs. a bucketload of liberal ones). I get the impression that this sort of thing, happening again and again, has worn him out a bit, and has given him an “edge.” Like I said, a case of Fed Up. I know the feeling, I’ve had that myself from time-to-time.

I am not defending him, or condemning him. But that’s my feel for it at the moment.

16

Well, my last post was sort of incoherent. And I did preview. Oh well.

Anyway, I think you get my point. He’s Fed Up. It’s been a stressful election, lots of vitriol, as Metacom puts it, “there’s a group of very liberal, very shrill, very verbose, and occaisonally very irrational posters that can pile on an opposing viewpoint with all the tact and civility of a pack of dogs taking a liquishit in one’s living room.” Bricker’s been on the receiving end of that for a while, and now he’s fed up.

17

I agree with this take on it. Now that the heat of the election is over, I expect to see Bricker (and some others) calm down and ease up. At least, I hope to. (He didn’t write any gloating comments when he cashed the check I mailed him for having lost the bet!)

18

Howdy, everyone.

There’s a classic Russian proverb: when ten people tell you’re drunk: go lie down.

The implication, of course, is that even if you’re convinced you’re fine, a strong weight should be given to a strong consensus of opinion in the other direction.

I try to keep this bit of wisdom in mind, really I do.

But… what if it’s Carrie Nation and nine of her friends offering the opinion?

I’m mindful of a certain … bitterness that’s crept into my posting recently. Five years ago, I never would have ended a post, “I don’t suppose we can draw any inference from this, except, of course, that Bush is evil, and a smirking moron chimp.”

But five years ago, the impetus to do that would never have been there.

The last couple of years have been very frustrating for me on this board, and I think the bitterness, the degeneration into ranting, and the like you’ve seen have their origin in that fact. I was faced, repeatedly, with confident and superior assertions about how evil “Bushco” was, how it was impossible for Bush to win a second term, how evil and selfish it is to be a Republican, how only homophobia could possibly account for an opposition to same-sex marriage, and the like.

What frustrates me more than anything else is that these particular opinions are offered by people whose debating style is not honest. If they lose on a point, they simply shift to another, never conceding the first point. And the general tone of the board – a board that I found as a haven for the skeptical and the trivia-minded – has, in its tone and feel, repudiated the skeptical when it comes to politics. Few posters emerge to challenge these tactics. There’s a disturbing groupthink that seems to come into play. Progressive is good. Liberal is good. Resistance is futile.

I’ll try to rein in my walk down towards madness, Hamlet. Your advice is noted and appreciated.

But I’d ask a favor in return, from you, and from all readers of this thread that consider themselves to be NOT fringe loonies.

Step up a bit. Call posters when they engage in dishonest tactics, even if it’s for a cause that you basically support. If you see a pile-on that doesn’t sit well with you, say something.

I was once called an Uncle Tom on this board, presumably because I’m of Salvadoran ancestry and a conservative as well. I don’t believe that remark got condemned by even five people.

It’s hard to maintain even-handed cheerfulness under those conditions.

  • Rick
19

I get your point, yosemite. I don’t think that, percentagewise, there are more assholes on the left than on the right (that is, as a percentage of posters on either side on this board). Nonetheless, they’ve always been there, and even in the weeks leading up to the election I was very happy with how Bricker remained civil and refrained from blanket attacks against all lefties.

Lately, I’ve not felt that he’s extended that courtesy or that precision. However much leftist monkeys may fling feces at him, that doesn’t give him a right to fling them back at all leftists, any more than milum’s idiocy gives me a right to make blanket condemnations of righties.

I don’t cut people much slack for throwing temper tantrums, for getting “fed up.” If you’ve got to lash out, find a pillow to whale on. Or make use of the “ignore” list. Don’t make blanket attacks that include good folks.

Daniel

20

Curses. Teach me to preview.

I appreciate the post, Bricker, and will try to condemn the left-wing loonies when they come along. I’m pretty sure I was one of those five who condemned whoever it was who called you Uncle Tom, if I remember that incident. At the same time, keep in mind that, if there are more leftist loonies numerically, that means more leftists numerically for me to repudiate; don’t expect me to catch 'em all.

Indeed, often I’ll try to ignore the people who aren’t contributing substantially to a thread; I confess I need to work on my skills at ignoring the rightwing nutjobs who don’t contribute. I think it’s often better to not dignify them with a response, to let their comments slide into obscurity, than to hijack the entire thread with the inevitable stupid back-and-forth you end up with when you call them on their bullshit. I try only to call people on it when they’re totally egregious, but like I said, I often succumb to the temptation to argue with them when that’s not the best response.

Daniel