That would be “policing”…
Please tell me that’s a typo and not just sophomoric namecalling.
Gaah, I hate when people do that.
It’s neither. It’s having a spot of fun with the username of a poster who, I’m pretty sure, already knows I hold in cordial regard and has enough of a sense of humor to accept it as such. In case it as escaped your notice, the entire post is intended as a spot of good natured ribbing. Hell, if I got my knickers in a twist everytime someone called me Lucy, I wouldn’t have time to indulge my hobby of hunting down packs of wild chihuahua. Got my faults. Its a long list but “delicate” and “touchy” ain’t on it.
Without hesitation, but perhaps a quibble over “epic”. Tomato, tomahto. Doubtless, the “epic scale” can apply to the VN war as a whole, and I certainly do not agree with what appears to be Sam’s determination to lay all the responsibility at the doorstep of his political opponents.
’luc
Not that I need to tell you – although I’m sure you won’t mind – that you are a master at irony and sarcam, and moreoever, that through those artifices you’re often capable of paring your opponent’s arguments down to their marrowless bones. And that’s all well and fine and even admirable in its effective restraint. But you know what? My favorite posts of yours are precisely those that allow us a glimpse behind the cynical facade. It is in those rare moments of yours, devoid of flowery rethoric and witty repartee, when I can see that we very much share the same sense of outrage vis-a-vis the direction your country’s taken. All the lies, the mindless killing, the lost youth of those used as mere instruments of death, the out and out quest for power at the expense of those that have little, in sum, the Big Dog approach – my way or die. It is in that solidarity of feeling, with you and many others here, that I find the strenght not to give up on Americans as whole. That there are still (hopefully) as many of you left as when I first discovered – and fell in love – with your country nearly fourty years ago. The peope I remember from back then were for the most part friendly, tolerant, open, progressive, and most of all, humble and peaceful. Quite a ways from what I’ve seen happening in the past four years. True enough, I am not naive enough not to realize that regardless of which party is in power, the US – as any other nation throughout history – places their interests in front of anything and everything else. That’s easy enough to corroborate just by virtue of reding a few history books.
But something fundamental’s changed in the past four years. And that’s the utter arrogance and complete disregard for diplomacy that’s been shown by the Bush’s ‘might makes right’ cabal. But even beyond that, what’s really surprising and alarming to me is the willingness of large segments of your society to go along with said radicals because it squarely impacts with the opposite perception I’ve held of your countrymen and women for so long. Yes, we can go on and on about the impact of 9/11 and the continued manipulation of said events to this day and how the combination of both has led you down this path. But rather than keep engaging in navel gazing, I think what your country really needs is to be shaken out of its doldrums. And it that vein, as I told gobear the other day, I also think it takes all kinds to do so. Whether it’s the almost interminably pacient such as Svin and Simon-X, the always polite as **tomdebb **, conciliators such as gobear himself, militants such as Dio or Stoid, hard-edged cynics such as yourself, or scornful pricks such as myself, I think the goal is the same. To put a stop to this madness. I feel that it’s the least we can try to do for future generations – if there are to be any. At least we can say we went down fighting.
Yes, I think the issue is, or to be more exact, is becoming as grave as that.
BTW, in keeping with said topic, what happened to the anti-war movement that was so strong prior to the invasion? Isn’t it about time we re-kindle that particular fire? Fuck. World’s so fucking lacking in leadership it’s almost no wonder so many Americans think of DimSon as being one.
Anyhow, I’ll let you know how I really think in some other post.
Y no, no pasaran, coño!
Companero:
Let me first assure you, I am not in the least bit cynical. I have met cynics, each and every one regards themselves as nothing more than hard-headed and realistic. By comparison, I am a dewy-eyed Pollyanna, I believe in compassion and mercy despite Cambodia, despite Rwanda. I believe in justice and freedom, despite the near universal victories of the ruthless and brutal. Because that’s just it, isn’t it? We play poker with the Dark One, all our cards are dealt face up, and he gets to draw twice, and yet! sometimes we win. That isn’t possible. But it happens.
Permit me to bore you witless. I come from a conservative heritage that I embraced entirely, Ayn Rand was my lodestone, it was perfectly clear to me that the world should be in the charge of the intellegent elite. By a happy coincidence, I considered myself one of that number. I read socialist views, things of that nature, with the calm assurance that I had dismantled each and every one of their arguments with entire ease.
At a bookstore I frequented, on my way to karate class, I dug out an obscure and poorly printed rag, The Realist, the product of the entirely scurrilous and disreputable Paul Krassner (may the Good Lord bless him and keep him all the days of his life!). It was the utterest blasphemy, he mocked and sneered at everything I held to be truth, he scorned my viewpoints with bitter humor and…he made me laugh. It was only the first crack in the armor, but it was as sure a doom as a positive biopsy: my worldview was, at least partly, ridiculous.
I never recovered. John Stewart’s Daily Show does more patriotic service than a battalion of Howard Deans and John Kerrys. We don’t need another Lincoln, we need another Mark Twain.
I am not a cynic, friend Red. I am a fool, and I am in the very best of company. Yours, for instance.
elucidator and Red Fury:
Aww, man.
Here I was ready to go stomping off into cyberspace, cursing the Straight Dope to hell forever and never looking back. And then you two pop up and start all this Kumbaya shit.
(Seriously, thanks for the encouragement. I really was about to throw in the towel.)
Tim
Mr. Svinlesha, I do very much hope that your parting line is only in reference to engagement with Sam Stone. I would wholeheartedly endorse such. If you mean from the board at large - well, that is quite sad.
And, sheepishly, I must say that I am thankful to RedFury. I feel I have found a banner and a group to which I might belong. I am incapable of belonging to the interminably patient, the polite or the concilators. If I am a hard-edged cynic, I don’t feel it in my bones. I may share much with the militants, but if I might stand beside you as a proud scornful prick, I would be honored!
elucidator, I try to be mindful of your message, since I have come to believe that no headway can be made with those committed to a party and not the country. Like RedFury, I fully believe that it is their intent to deceive and distract. They worship at the alter of Rove. Perhaps there are lurkers who find utility in the argument. It’s hard work, though. Hard, hard work.
Hey elucidator! This thread is a mess, but that was absolutely brilliant. Especially that last part (almost Socratian) and the way you tied it together with the beginning is I think the best I’ve read here on SDMB.
If you could just write like that in political threads I assure you, you would make a bleeding red liberal of me in no time.
I was going to write something about arrogance, fanatical belief of owing the truth, complete inability to reach across and see the matter from the other side, Svinlesha and RedFury here, but think I’ll leave on a positive note instead. (heh)
Exactly. But man…look at the company! I’m gettin’ all dewy eyed.
I love you guys.
Hentor:
Yeah, I was on the verge of giving up this place for good.
Rune:
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.
A while back a poster started a thread in which he asked others to debate the Iraq war from the position opposite their own. After some careful forethought I obliged, and laid out in as forceful, clear, and logical manner I could the strongest arguments for a unilateral US invasion of Iraq. (If I remember correctly, I really was the only one who gave a serious shot at fairly representing the position of the other side, although a couple of war-supporters did drop in to write parody arguments of the anti-war views.)
In the space of about two hours two posters commented that my arguments had changed their minds and led them to hop off the fence and conclude that the war was absolutely necessary.
I’'ll see if I can locate the thread. But anyway, the idea that I somehow don’t understand the other side, or that I lay claim to owning the truth, is simply ludicrous.
Prove to me with clear, straightforward arguments and compelling evidence that those tubes were suitable, and intended for, use as enrichment centrifuges, and I will gladly concede the point.
Actually, the problem is, as usual, quite the opposite. Please point me to a single post in which Sam, Shodan, or the other pro-war apologists on this board have ever conceded that the anti-war side had a point – even in the face of the WMD fiasco. Shit: Shodan is still arguing that they actually found WMDs in Iraq.
And in the face of that, you think I’m being unreasonable?
Fair enough. I actually hesitated over the word “epic” myself, and probably kept it there in the end mainly because I actually know a few of these boat people and have heard their harrowing tales.
I’m just about as strongly anti-communist as they come, but I was never comfortable with many of the tactics we used to fight it. It shouldn’t have been necessary to cozy up with the unsavory types we often did-- from the merely corrupt, to the genuinely evil. Add to that a policy which essentially just tried to prevent the South Vietnamese from losing (instead of ensuring they would win), and it’s hard to think of much good that came out of that war. It was a dark, dark period of American history, let alone what the Vietnamese think about that period of THEIR history.
But they did! They had a centrifuge, buried under a rose bush. With that one centrifuge, and all that uranium they were importing, they could wait until we weren’t looking and start a program that could produce a uranium bomb in…just a second…times six, carry the two…just under 11,000 years!
Clearly, there was no time to lose.
There.
Now let us see if you, Sam, or Shodan can present, in equally cogent fashion, the strongest arguments against the war.
I hasten to clarify: the figure “11,000 years” was pulled directly from my fundament. I have not the slightest idea how long it would take, using one centrifuge, to refine enough uranium for a bomb.
This message brought to you as a service to the terminally literal-minded and humor impaired…
I hasten to clarify: my comment was meant as sarcasm. Failed, obviously, but still…
Not a bit of it! Right on target.
If there’s a difference between Sam Stone’s opinions and the typical Freeper’s, it’s on the order of the percentage of folks who voted for Bush vs. the percentage of folks who voted for Kerry.
Then again, Sam still believes Bush has won some sort of “mandate,” which might explain his ocular disorder in overmagnifying the trivial…
I can’t recall ever being mentioned in one of these pissing matches. Oh well.
Anyway, my complete lack of patience is due to what Red Fury said. Besides, in real life I do have a monstrous temper as well sometimes.
And yes, the boat people episode was horrific. I said so myself upon wading into the argument, and losing more than 1 out of every 10, which is the low-end that I came up with, to the categories of dead, missing, and abducted is pretty awful enough without having to exaggerate. Actually, I think something like half of the boats were attacked on their way regardless. So it was hellish.
However, my patience long ago wore out. I see no honor at all on the other side, just a bunch of people willing to parade whatever propaganda gets spewed, regardless even of the number of our own soldiers who die in the service of lies, much less the innocent Iraqis caught in the crossfire.
It was especially disappointing to see both Scylla and Sam Stone enthusiastically embrace the Swift Boat Lies. That did it for me. It’s one thing to disagree, it’s another to call one candidate a traitor. That was way over the line, especially after all the lies that got us into this mess.
So no, my patience is not coming back. Which, I suppose, means I’ll be in a lot more of these pissing matches.
Do I count as a pro-war apologist?
In this post, I said:
Now, as it happens, I did vote for Bush. I did so because, having reviewed what the administration relied upon, I concluded that he neither lied or acted irresponsibly. He was wrong, though, without question, and I remain disappointed in the failure of our intelligence in this area.
It would have been far better to make our case for war based on the probability of WMDs, rather than a claim of certainty.
- Rick