Dude, the reason I’m arguing with people here about terminology is because terminology is the only thing we have left to argue about; besides that, I agree with almost everything they have to say.
By asking questions and having discussions that go pretty much exactly like this one has.
Not even I, with my above “African-Americans who hate/fear Whites aren’t being racist” argument, would make the argument that Black people can’t be racist. Of course they can, and are.
You admit here that society is set up in such a way that a reasonable person of color would be upset with the way things are, but, then say that it would be wrong for them to feel that way.
I said nothing about being upset, or even about being furious; there’s nothing morally wrong with getting pissed off.
The whole “racism without power isn’t racism” discussion can be had but isn’t this thread for calling Bricker shit sculpted into human shape?
He is shit sculpted into human shape for a lot of reasons even if we decide racism isn’t one of them.
That’s crazy talk.
Interesting defining feature of prejudice there. Can be used to excuse all kinds of supposed bigotry such as profiling.
You said that you would hate, if you were in that position. Then in your next sentence, say that it would be wrong to hate.
But, there are two definitions of racism here. There is the racism that is the creation and maintenance of an oppressive power structure that benefits the majority at the expense of the minority. This is obviously very harmful to the minorities oppressed this way, but is also harmful to the oppressors. It is institutional, and it requires the attention of all of us to address through legislative or judicial processes.
Then there is racism that is simply that an individual feels dislike for someone else due to their experiences or notions about them due to their race.It is on an individual level, and while it would be nice to get people to like each other, that is not something that can be accomplished through legislative processes.
The equating of the two very different definitions is the problem. Black people cannot be racist in the US under the first definition, and that is the one that is actually harmful to society. Black people can certainly be racist under the second definition, but that is not make them equivalent tot those who are racist under the first.
When a black person says, “Fuckin’ wypipo!”, us fucking wypipo have no real fear that that is going to end our privileged positions. If a white person says, “Fuckin’ N-!”, then that is a threat against the person, their family, and their community that has been historically backed by substantial violence condoned and even mandated by the state.
Profiling isn’t as harmless as personal prejudice. A Black man hating Whites isn’t violating anyone’s right to fair treatment and due process the way a policeman doing racially-biased stop&frisk is.
Nor, I would argue, is the underpinning based on valid reasoning or actual experience.
I don’t disagree with you, and I’m not arguing that Black people have a right to hate white individuals or anyone else for that matter. And as I said, I agree that some black individuals may be assholes, and people tend not to like assholes of any ethnicity.
Nevertheless, I think most people having this discussion are fundamentally missing the point, which is that among Black Americans there is a lingering frustration in dealing with Whites, in trying to get Whites to understand what racism really is from the perspective of people who have suffered real racism - racism beyond being forced to settle for the University of Michigan instead of getting into Harvard. The fact is that colonial Europeans bound for the Americas created the racism that exists today in the Western world. There’s always been tribalism throughout human history, but modern racism and racial exploitation, such as the kind that led to the creation of race-based socioeconomic stratification, was created by Whites. Blacks and other non-whites have been its victims. Against this historical background, it’s difficult to see how Blacks can be racist when they’re the ones being most victimized.
What asahi is doing is using a particular academic/scholarly definition of racism. Here’s something I ripped from an earlier discussion:
Why I teach a course called ‘White Racism’
*here he referenced a HuffPo article
It’s like, if when you leave your house, you get slapped upside the head. Then sometimes, when you are walking down the street, you get slapped upside the head. You get in your car, and someone slaps you upside the head.
You say, man, “this shit sucks, being slapped upside the head all the time.” Your privileged acquaintance, who does not get slapped upside the head, says, “It’s just a slap upside the head, you can deal with it.”
So, everytime you complain about being slapped upside the head, you are reminded that you should just deal with it. One day, you slap your acquaintance upside the head, and he says, “Holy shit dude! Why’d you do that, that hurt!”
It’s more like I’d like to minimize head-slapping, even though I don’t experience it myself, yet people still accuse me of being a head-slapper. They even call it a “privilege” to not get slapped even though it would be no worse for me if there were no head-slapping.
Or even worse, in some areas of institutional racism, it’s as if the government paid people to randomly go slapping people upside the head. That’s definitely not a privilege to me since I have to pay for this wasted expense.
Anti-semitism isn’t racism? :dubious:
Are you retarded?
The point is that whiteness is a constructed identity defined as, essentially, an absence of race. Racialization is the process of creating and/or designating an ethnicity as being “lesser” and different. These constructed, racialized groups can, of course, fight, hate each other, and hurt each other, but they’re not part of the class that systematically creates, enforces, and oppresses these identities.
It’s similar to the Marxist notion of the bourgeoisie creating or usurping ideas like religion or race in order to divide the proletariat and prevent them from seizing their rights. It just places the race struggle front and center rather than the class struggle. (Similarly, radical feminism has similar notions but places the patriarchy and gender as the central factor)
So under radical racialization theory, blacks can be “anti-Semitic” but it’s not racist in the sense that they’re not the oppressor group and black and Jewish people are merely two groups exploited and divided by an oppressive white class.
And that may be your perspective, but there are many out there who don’t care, so long as it is not their head getting slapped, some would even volunteer to do some slapping themselves, and those people would be looking quite a bit like yourself. You may even, inadvertently, brush a few heads with your open palm.
And you are “better” off for the head slapping, because the head slapping insures that there is someone worse off than you are. If you can see no way or reason to improve your own lot, the next best thing is to put someone else in their place.
Depends on what your values are. You just explained why Jim Crow laws didn’t exist. But they did exist, so there must be people with differing values than yourself.
Up to this point I sympathize with you (other than the fact that I’ve never internalized an general criticism of white people as being criticism of me personally).
And here I disagree. It is a privilege not to get slapped because the slapping is pushing the other people out of your way and allowing you to get places faster, easier, and smoother. You don’t realize this because you can’t see it; the slapped have already been knocked out of your way by the time you get there.
And in the case of institutional racism, this effect is more systematically applied to give you a virtual conveyor belt forward. Admittedly you get fewer benefits than those who actually enjoy watching the slaps, but having a a ‘whites only fountain’ still results in a shorter line for you whether you’re a racist or not.
When whites think of racism, they think of “Extreme bigoted sentiments”, based upon black and white film clips of the Klan et al.
When blacks think of racism, they think about what they encounter today. So it’s going to emphasize “Personal feelings of racial animosity” less and “Institutional racism” more. Because institutional racism hurts their job prospects and causes them to be stopped and frisked by police with varying levels of professionalism.
Black people (mostly) can’t be racist in the institutional racism sense: they lack the power (mostly). They certainly can be racist in the animosity sense. Blacks have good reason for thinking of anti-black institutions when they think of racism. Arguably racial animosity should be considered the 2 word concept, while institutional racism should be shortened into, “Racism”. In practice though, meaning is a blend. Then there’s “Race motivated indifference”, another level of toxic.
I perceive more legit attacks and fair cops than mis-steps. I cut slack for the missteps like his slur on Bricker (which he retracted and apologized for).
I think Huey has read a little racism studies. He’s not conversant in it though. But if he was conversant in it, too many white folks would perceive it as jibberish. That’s the paradox I was alluding to.
For an example of someone conversant in racism studies and who writes clearly and calmly (and far better than myself), see 5’ 7" on twitter and tumblr: https://twitter.com/absurdistwords
https://twitter.com/absurdistwords/status/838835713785344000
Part of the problem is that people hear, “what do you mean I have privilege? My life sucks!!!” All having “privilege” really means, is that, “As a member of Group X, I won’t have to deal with the issues that someone from Group Y will.”
Just because I’m white doesn’t mean my life is going to be all sunshine and roses, nor does it mean that someone who’s black is going to have a life of misery. It just means there are problems that a black person has to deal with that a white person will not.
And I think it’s important to be aware of that, and put yourself in someone else’s shoes every now and then. Keeps us all grounded.
And that, right there, is wrong. Racism is racism. Saying, “I can’t be a racist, because I’m X!” gives people an excuse.
I’m tired of the “racism means prejudice + power”. Some people are racist because they LACK power, and feel resentment over it.
Racism without power is still racism. Fine.
But it’s pissing in the wind.
A racist black dude is annoying you on a message board. A black person in a culture of white supremacy deals with far bigger issues in almost every aspect of his or her life.
That’s not hyperbole. It starts in preschool. In continues in education. It continues when you are done being educated and want a job. It continues when you want to buy a house. It is prevalent in areas of law enforcement and in our justice system. It affects you even after you’re dead. Statistically speaking, it’s better to be a poor white man than a relatively well-off black man. That’s the reality of what it’s like being black in America.
Arguably Obama was the biggest success story for black people in this country. How did the country react? Electing a racist who is dismantling his legacy.
The final insult is that they go to that same message board and are told that they need to suck it up and get over all of it lest they hurt someone’s feelings. And heaven forbid they use a word that is used in their culture as a specific thing to try and communicate with people here, lest they be accused of hate speech.
Because all bad words are the same just like all racism is the same. Spoiler: That would be not at all.