Did anyone order a relative privation fallacy?
That supports the argument that there is a lot of out and out racism in this country, which is evidence against the argument that simply being a live and let live liberal is not enough, and by not being woke enough you are part of the problem. Whereas the past elections have shown there’s a high percentage of people who vote against someone because of their race or vote for someone because he says the sort of racist things they want to hear. There’s a significant number of them around, and I’d argue that they’re more dangerous than liberals who are focused on economic rather than social issues.
Did anyone order false equivalencies? Oh yes, they did. That’s how we got Trump. And that’s what I am pointing out, the false equivalence that all racism is the same. The power component changes it in countless ways.
But it’s noted that you’re still bugged by someone on a message board. Poor thing.
There’s one misconception in this post - so-called progressives who “are focused on economic rather than social issues” are often racist themselves. It manifests itself with toxic white feminism and in so-called Bernie Bros. Liberals are racist too and there’s not much difference between “economic anxiety” and “focused on economic issues” when it comes to buzzword rationalizations for racism.
And it’s not just a numbers game. Of course there are a lot more enthusiastic Trump lovers than there were progressives who sit on their hands unless they feel inspired by their candidate.
I have three cats and one or more of them will sometimes shit on the floor despite three litter boxes in our house. I never had a friend come into my house and shit on my carpet. If it ever happened, that friend would be far fewer in number than my cats - certainly responsible for far fewer shits. But I am much more pissed off with my friend than my cats.
I have the same view about supposed liberals who didn’t do all they could to defeat Trump. You expect the MAGAts to shit on the carpet, not your friends.
That was not what I was talking about – don’t put words in my mouth.
Good for you.
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Right, and having privilege means that, everything else being equal, someone with less privilege has a life that sucks more than yours does. They are just as smart, just as motivated, just as willing to put in an honest day’s work for an honest day’s wage. But, due to nothing more than a higher level of melanin in their skin, their life is harder.
Agreed.
How about, my racism has no power over you, unlike your racism, which has been used to oppress me for generations.
Yes, but their racism, by your own definition, has no power, unlike the racism of the majority against the minority.
I’m not talking about power over ME (or the group I’m in personally). The problem is when people start to play the Oppression Olympics. Who has it worse – Jews? Blacks? Latinos? Asians? Women? Gays? The disabled?
And what about asahi’s bullshit about whites inventing racism? Does that mean that everyone here in America was just one big happy family before Columbus came, that no tribe had any ideas of superiority based on race? Everything in Asia was all sunshine and roses in Asia – the Japanese never felt themselves above the Chinese, who considered Koreans inferior, etc?
(Plus, it wasn’t always simply a case of being “white”. 100 years ago, you had to be the “right” type of white.)
Yes, privilege exists. I’m not denying it. What I am DENYING is the idea that just because one group has been oppressed, that means they cannot be racist towards another oppressed group.
You’re free to disagree, of course.
The whole “cycle of abuse” might be another example.
I don’t know enough about this, but I find it plausible that Europeans invented the ideology of racism. Though tribalism - of which racism is one variant - has existed for millennia. Prejudice certainly did: the ancient Romans considered themselves superior to the Greeks for example.
Here’s a blurb for a book I haven’t read: Are antisemitism and white supremacy manifestations of a general phenomenon? Why didn’t racism appear in Europe before the fourteenth century, and why did it flourish as never before in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries? Why did the twentieth century see institutionalized racism in its most extreme forms? Why are egalitarian societies particularly susceptible to virulent racism? What do apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany, and the American South under Jim Crow have in common? How did the Holocaust advance civil rights in the United States?
With a rare blend of learning, economy, and cutting insight, George Fredrickson surveys the history of Western racism from its emergence in the late Middle Ages to the present. Anyway, I wouldn’t dismiss asahi’s point out of hand.
I tend more to Guin’s view. Racism is as old as humanity. Look at the Bible - it’s all us versus them. Believe the right way, look the right way, follow the right rules. It’s built into our make up to like people like ourselves, and view others as suspect.
I also don’t understand the argument that some forms of racism are acceptable because some people are more victimized. By that argument, women can ethically be misandrists because of the oppression men have doled out. It doesn’t compute.
Sure. I said as much. Tribalism has existed for millennia. The ancient Jews didn’t like the ancient Samaritans.
The question is the extent that the modern ideology of racism, with skin color as a key marker and a little phrenology thrown in, has existed forever. It hasn’t. I don’t know how important these distinctions are, because I haven’t read up on the issue.
That’s not the argument. The argument is that racism without power doesn’t amount to much. In fact we shouldn’t even call it racism, just simple prejudice.
By that definition, can blacks be racist? Sure: they can be racist where they have power. During the Rodney King riots a single black guy picked a white guy at random and killed him. That was prejudice + power. Racism.
It’s just that there isn’t all that much anti-white racism in the US, by that definition. Far more anti-black and anti-Hispanic racism.
This SWM has been looked at funny by certain members of certain minority communities. It doesn’t amount to much and for me to call it racism is laughable. Prejudice might work fine, it that is what it is. But if a white store clerk does it to half the minorities that walk in the door, that’s a problem, clerk’s socioeconomic status notwithstanding.
He’s wrong, though.* In that situation*, those poor Whites did not lack power. They had the power of their privilege - they could literally assault Black kids and get away with it. You can’t tell me that isn’t power.
What do you think would have happened to an adult Black male who threw rocks at White schoolkids, in that same time and place?
This actually pisses me off. A racial slur is not a fucking misstep. Please stop minimizing racism. Non-racists don’t slip up and use slurs. You can’t argue he didn’t know it was a slur, since he used it as a slur.
But, okay, let’s say you give him a pass since he apologized. I could do that, if it were the first time. But, as I said, this is a fucking pattern for him. He slips in little attacks on white people in many if not most of his posts.
I mean, I tried to give him a pass when he first got here, and was throwing out anti-white rhetoric. My first response to him was to point out that not all white people are racists, and that most of the people on his side were racists. What was his response? To tell me I was “one of the good ones.” You know, the same bullshit white racists say when they defend saying black people are all lazy, thieves, thugs, whatever.
But, even then, I didn’t put him on ignore. I even congratulated him for wanting to make that “being black” pit thread, and advised him on how to do it without pissing people off.
I was optimistic. But, even after that, he still kept on slipping in little anti-white jab into various posts.
I think it was when he called the mods white for moderating him (for personal insults, I believe) that I decided that enough was enough. This is a racist asshole. Other people were contributing to the black pit thread, so he has nothing to offer there, either.
I understand why some people might not put him on ignore. You want to refute his racist nonsense. I even understand sometimes picking out what he’s said of value–as long as you also don’t ignore or minimize the racism.
But that’s exactly what you do when you call his racist shit “missteps.” In addition to the “pocho” slur, which he doesn’t give a real apology for (“Sorry if I offended you,” not “I was wrong and being racist.”) there’s his use of “coonery,” which is a black nationalist term for black people who “sell out” to white people because they adopt some aspects of white culture. Something so bad that Miller, who wouldn’t moderate “pocho,” had to step in and say was not allowed.
Sunny Daze references other past posts. He attacked autistic kids as being a “white” thing due to inbreeding. She cites his racial purism. This is really nasty racist bullshit.
Despite the other stuff he says of value, these aren’t missteps. These are his own racism poking through. He needs to get a handle on it before he continues lecturing everyone else about theirs. He needs to realize that his shit can stink.
He gets no benefit of the doubt from me until he cleans it up.
Yes, that is a problem. And it leads to marginalized groups not caring about other marginalized groups or worse, using racial bias against those in other groups to hurt them. White feminists notoriously do this to blacks in this country, many blacks in this country didn’t see gay rights as civil rights and did things such as vote for Proposition 8 in California in 2008 which reversed the court decision that allowed gay marriage in the state (Latinos also voted for the measure but not as decisively as blacks), and you will hear about TERFS - Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists who are very hostile to trans rights and sometimes people.
I see this as minorities falling into the divide and conquer trap that the majority has been setting since they first made damn sure that poor whites never once figured out that they were a lot closer to enslaved blacks and almost as unlikely to advance their station than they were to the wealthy white landowners.
Fortunately in this case, we’re not discussing minority group infighting. We’re discussing minorities expressing racist attitudes towards the majority. I don’t see how the expression I used “pissing in the wind” is not accurate in this regard.
You got huffy when someone agreed with you, so maybe we’re not completely free to disagree either.
Regardless it’s literally a semantic issue. The definition of racism is not generally recognized as having a power component so it’s technically correct that any group can be racist. But people like to make a false equivalence that all racism is equally bad. It’s not. It’s really, really not. Even when this is pointed out the likes of Gary Kumquat miss the point entirely.
It really sucks that someone may look down on me because I am a white male and that certainly happened when I lived in neighborhoods where I was the minority. But I was able to escape those neighborhoods by making more money and not getting caught in situations where a black person might have been derailed. I even did this without a college education which kills opportunities for blacks (did you know the average white high school drop out earns more than the average black college graduate)? I was able to buy a house in a neighborhood that is 56.6% white and 27.5% black as opposed to my previous neighborhood that was 76.1% black and 17.7% white. There is a ton of discrimination in housing that comes from the communities that a black person might want to live in and the banks that they would need to get the mortgage. I am not rich, my life isn’t perfect, but my privilege as a white male with above average intelligence and communication skills allows me to make up for my shortcomings. I also work hard but that’s not enough and never has been for many, many people.
So maybe instead of commenting on my previous post by saying that posts on message boards don’t bother you, instead you remove the blinders from your eyes and ask yourself why some blacks might lash out against some or even all whites. They have a right to be angry and I give them some slack, just as I did when they did it to me in my own neighborhood, disgustedly asking me “why are you here” when I walked home from the bus stop.
To whine against racism when that happened to me is showing complete ignorance of my privilege. So I didn’t. It’s not a good look.
You are correct, racism can come from and towards any group of people. However rather than sprain your wrist jerking yourself off, consider that even if we still concede it can be called racism even without the power component, it’s vastly different in practice. It comes from a different place and the ability to use racist beliefs to hurt the majority in any meaningful way are pretty useless.
While worrying about word definitions, I’m not sure you have grasped that yet.
This is horseshit. As has been explained above. You’re calling college professors and mainstream media outlets “black nationalists” which is horseshit.
I really don’t care about some black guy calling me a cracker on a message board (or whatever else). They can’t hurt me and I attempt to be compassionate enough to understand where that might come from and not take it personally.
I am far more offended that a moderator on this board speaking from a place of ignorance allows the likes of you to fling poo just because you saw an authority figure pick up a turd and toss it. It’s also far more offensive that the moderator of a place supposedly devoted to eradicating ignorance, when met with a gentle correction with citations, hasn’t done more than respond other than a snarky non-response. It’s obvious that the moderators here are not paid and we get what we paid for.
But if I am offended enough at that, I can leave. I might even be able to block a moderator, though before I did that I would just leave.
If you’re offended at some words on this board, you can block or leave. Whining about it doesn’t make you pious, it makes you a petty attention whore who can’t see beyond his or her computer screen to understand that your discomfort is nothing in the grand scheme of things even if you’re not capable of such enlightenment.
You say this as if you think this speaks well of you, that your first response was to literally #NotAllWhites at him?.
You can’t put Mods on ignore.
Now all you need to do is point out who claimed that all racism is equally effective, once you’ve finished being bugged by people disagreeing with you on a message board. In your own time.
But I’m not talking about whether or not they got in trouble. Yes, getting away with it? That’s definitely privilege. But their actions were born of frustration at not being able to STOP the kid, or the changes going on in the world.
It’s not a black or white issue. (no pun intended) It’s not a case of, “this is equally bad”.
Racism is a trait that we’re born with? Wow. That is something. I guess that’s one way to sleep at night.
Yes, the problem appears that you do not know what whiteness is. This is a particular problem because white folks United States eschew expert opinion and believe their non-expert opinions have more weight than scholars who have extensively written and studied race theory for decades.
Who said wasn’t using it at the academic sense? I use the term in the same way scholars such as Robin DiAngelo, James Baldwin, and Carol Anderson would use it. But let’s set that aside, because there’s no point in getting lost in those woods. I do want to take the take the time to highlight the fact that if you look at the term *whiteness *as an “attack on white people based solely on the color of their skin”, then, I’m afraid the discussion is over before it begun. I will say this, though. You used the words attack on white people which is what white folks would say when white supremacy is challenged. It is worth pausing to note that this word - attack - is a word that connotes physical or mental violence. It is clear that when people of color challenge whiteness either through expressing a counter-narrative or by non-violent protests, we are labeled as aggressive, violent, ungrateful, and/or hateful. “Whiteness” isn’t an attack on white people anymore than Colin Kaepernick engaging in non-violent, non-vocal, non-motile protests is an attack on the armed forces of the United States.
(emphasis mine)
Guin, we’re not going to say eye-to-eye here. And that’s OK. What I will say is that if you have a significant other, hold them tight. Because if you lose them, you’ll never find another person again. You carry so much baggage that you’re buried beneath it. Good luck.
Then so be it. Because I’m sure you’ve never struggled or experienced adversity in your life, please, let me be the first to let you know: you, and only you, are responsible for your actions. I notice that many white folks, like yourself, abdicate responsibility by blaming their behavior or actions on others. That does not fly. What’s next? Will you beat your wife to a inch of her life and tell her afterwards “I only beat you because your behavior made me” or as white folks did a few years ago “I only voted for Trump because ‘the left’ kept talking about people of color”. Fuck that shit. If you want to want to feel sympathy for Diamond and Bricks or support white supremacy, then do so, but to blame your actions on the behavior of others is cowardly and an abdication of responsibility.
Understood. Sorry to have you get dragged into this. On my end, I’m going to work on making those boundaries aren’t crossed and to post less.
Not true, as I also stated that Somalis also have a high rate of autism.
It’s pretty funny to read this because my intention was the opposite. It goes to show you, that with white folks, you can’t win for losing. I stopped posting in that specific thread because I felt that my interaction with posters in that thread got in the way of the thread’s message. Another reason was that I typically only have time to post on the weekends.
And the mods were white. I was given “a mod note” (I think that’s what you people call it) for hate speech after writing “Negro, please”. If you were a person of color, you’d know that “negro, please” loosely translates to "Are you serious?"or “Don’t be ridiculous”. It is not hate speech. This merits repeating a thousand times: it’s not hate speech and, if you doubt this, ask any person of color and they will tell you. My point was that if the mods had diversity, they might been able to ask a person of color about that and get that certitude before accusing someone of using hate speech. But, we can set all of that aside, because there’s no point in letting nuance get in the way of a good narrative that Huey "called the mods white"just for moderating him.
This is true. This thread is about Diamond and Bricks and we shouldn’t be off-topic. If people want to continue, make a new thread to get in their 2 minutes of hate.