This just in from the Almighty:
“Vengeance is mine”, saith the Lord “and you keep your grubby mitts off it till your qualified!”
Honestly, I think some of you guys need to adjust your medication. Rant-o-rama! It probably would sound better in German.
Ok…
I admit that I was rabble rousing with the branding comment.
Once you get your car stolen and beat-up beyond repair, then come talk to those of us who have been victims. At the time I was on fairly shaky financial ground, so it was a huge set back for me.
Society needs to find a deterent to decrease the amount of stolen cars. The current revovling door is just not working.
Until the Lord personally smites the son of a bitch who stole my mums car I’ll consider earthly justice to be a reasonable means of punishment. should earthly justice, in some instances, include corporal punishment? Yes.
Bring “back” the whip or cane? Pardon me, but I’m not aware that the whip or cane has ever been standard punishment in the U.S., for any crime, except in the military.
We did use to have public stocks, but I don’t see that they were very effective.
I think the time that crime was lowest in the United States was from the 1940s to the early 1960s, after public lynchings became rare but before the rise of the Great Society. (I am aware that crime has been decreasing throughout the 1990s, but I do not think it is back down to pre-1960s levels). At no time from the 1940s to the early 1960s did we use the whip or cane, even in the military. Nor did we use public stocks, facial branding, or any other punishment not used today.
Perhaps we should look elsewhere than the severity of the punishment to explain why crime rates today are so high compared to what they once were. I might particularly note that a large, permanent welfare class came into being in the 1960s, and economic good times and welfare reform in the 1990s have combined to bring crime down. I also note that during our periods of lowest crime, there was no drug war in effect, making far more prison space available for violent criminals and thieves.
**Proponents of caning, branding and mandatory castration should consider moving to a country that doesn’t try to protect its citizens against cruel and unusual punishment.
I’ve read that very few plumbers in China have their Volkswagen Jettas stolen, for instance, and Turkish factory workers don’t even have to keep an eye on their cell phones.
If you find that the quality of life there isn’t as good as it is here, you’re welcome to come back, as far as I’m concerned. I do not think, however, that too many Americans are interested in making this place more like those places.
ben901
It’s all about love people! If the miscreants don’t feel love, then they will offend. If the felon was brought up in a loving caring family (or community) then they would not feel the need to offend. Love the prisoner, hate the crime.
Well, if it were a particularly saucy and insolent English schoolgirl, and I were the hea… er, maybe this is the wrong forum.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Lawyers DO have a sense of humor! 
I’ll answer. Yes, I’d be perfectly willing to work delivering the lashes.
I favor corporal punishment for various offenses. No, I’m not going to be drawn into writing a list of them. I also favor the correct administration of capital punishment. As I’ve already been called a monster for those views, I won’t answer on that point either.
But I would like to point out two things:
Flogging and releasing the person would not require the state to pay for their attendance at finishing school.
I would add that for most cases, the public humiliation of being spanked in public would tend to lessen the macho-points which a term of prison usually confers.
No, for low-to-mid level offenses, a flogging, release, no parole and a sealed record are the answers.
Yep. we should beat our children, too. Teach them respect.
Physical violence breeds physical violence.
Hell, I even I know that.
'Nuff said.
OK. Everyone knows that what deters criminals is not the severity of punishment, but the certainty of punishment.
So, if you want to decrease crime, how about we spend more effort catching, trying, and convicting criminals, rather than piling on the punishments? Most criminals have no idea what the punishment is for their crimes. They simply do them impulsively, with no thought for the consequences. With swift and sure punishment there would be no way to avoid thinking of the consequences.
Compare this to training a puppy. Every time the puppy pees on the floor you paddle him and say “NO!” sharply. He soon stops peeing on the floor. Or, you could beat him severly and starve him for a week every 100th time he pees on the floor. Which puppy is going to learn faster?
Two anecdotal points (although I may be able to provide citations if it becomes an issue):
In gangs, today, there is often an element of hazing or “proof of loyalty” or whatever that includes the administration of “punishment.” If (some) crooks will voluntarily accept that just to get “in the group,” what makes anyone think that using physical punishment will deter a kid?
In the book The Fatal Shore (discussing the settling of Australia by criminals), Robert Hughes noted that prisoners who “earned their stripes” wore them proudly and that it became a point of honor for some of them to have earned a scourging several times or more.
Tom,
If you really sincerely don’t believe that corporal punishment works, then I challenge you to test my theory by performing this experiment:
Walk into a really seedy, dangerous part of town (for me, this would be a few miles from my house in Newark) at about 3:30am. If you’re afraid to do even that, then congratulations! You have successfully proven that fear of certain corporal punishment is, in fact, a successful deterrent!
Let’s assume you make it to the bad side of the tracks in the middle of the night. Next step: walk around until you find a large, seedy-looking guy. Make sure he’s a real mean son of a bitch. Got it? Good deal. Now spit on his boots. To minimize experimental error, try kicking his bike over, too.
If you aren’t willing to try it, then congratulations. I’m right. Fear of a certain beating has successfully deterred you from carrying out my instructions.
So if instead of a few months or years in prison, which precludes reform in most cases, and actually works towards further corruption, we can dole out a few lashes which don’t contribute to hardening criminals and is a most serious deterrent, not to mention costing much less, why not?
Gangs today view imprisonment as a badge of honor and loyalty. Fraternities often have hazings that involve illegal activities which could lead to incarceration.
By your reasoning, we should eliminate prisons, yes? We have already seen over the last several decades that imprisonment is a drain on the economy and no sort of deterrent. There will always be people who will not respond to any kind of punishment (short of death). That does not mean that the punishment should be rejected out of hand. Come on, there are people who mutilate their own bodies for sexual pleasure. Does that mean that castration won’t deter potential sexual offenders?
Flogging works. Period. And for your Australians who don’t respond to lashes, we would still have your beloved prisons, but with much more unoccupied space. After all, there would be fewer repeat offenders and fewer imprisonments after the institution of floggings.
I did not actually express any opinion as to whether corporal punishment “works.”
I noted two examples that indicate that it is probably not the panacea proposed in the OP.
Further example: flogging used to be the standard method of discipline in the military. After Melville’s White Jacket was published, there was a great outcry to eliminate flogging from the Navy. (The Army followed much later.) The majority of the senior admirals harrumphed that the elimination of floggings would immediately result in frequent mutinies and constant chaos aboard their ships. They were forced to discontinue the floggings over their protests, anyway. Do you have any evidence that Navy discipline was superior prior to 1850 than it was during the Civil War, the Spanish American War, or any period in the twentieth century? (During these periods we have had both all-volunteer and mostly conscripted personnel, so we can compare either of those components of the personnel.)
Singapore is an extremely regimented society that has fewer individual freedoms than are exercised in the U.S. (I am not claiming a totalitarian, or even an authoritarian, state in Singapore; I am pointing out differences in cultures.) Our society got rid of flogging over a hundred years ago and did not immediately go to hell in a handbasket. A return to corporal punishment, now, might provide some benefits to society. However, if you would like to propose a change in the current standard, it is up to you to provide evidence that in our culture it would provide a benefit (beyond the enjoyment of various people in the satisfaction that evildoers have had pain inflicted upon them).
Certainly there are many factors that influence the individual as to whether that individual is going to commit a crime. Have we all not contemplated shoplifting when we were kids? But I did go through an evaluation process that involved my instilled morality, my perceived need,and the probability of negative outcomes. As a society, there is very little we can do on the first two factors.
Now my concern is that most people who commit crimes are immature. As a 50 year old, I know that young people generally have no concept of how valuable time is and how little of it we actually have. What is a couple of years?
Then when they get out with a criminal record, they become 2nd class citizens with a very serious stigma. The only people who provide any comfort are peers, and these associations can only foster further antisocial behavior.
Its"fuck you society!!! You guys who live in your fancy houses and drive your fancy cars and keep me down. There is no way that i can have what you have by playing with your rules. fuck your rules."
Now I ask you dopers, what is worse? Beating the shit out of annother kid, or stealing a $50,000 car? Now I’m not sure but I’ll bet you get prison time for stealing a car. As for me(12 years old) I AM very lucky they didn’t send me to prison for beating up the kid. I got the strap from the principal, and I can asure you, looking back, that it was very effective. And now I am productive member of society.
As a parent of two grown children, I have only had to spank each of them twice. I don’t like spanking but there comes a time when you just have to, and I’m glad I did.
Joe_Cool:
Aha, but is a criminal afraid to walk into that part of town? No, it’s full of criminals already (which is why you don’t want to go there). But someone who gets in fights every night isn’t going to be afraid to get in one more.
Corporal punishment is not always a deterrant, but it’s definitely better than imprisonment for most people. Yes, we all did things as kids that we knew we would get a spanking for, but I DID consider the consequences of my actions more when I knew it was a spanking offense than when it was a ‘go to your room’ offense. And there were certain things that I would NEVER consciously do because I knew the punishment would be much sterner than I was willing to risk.
I know when I shoplifted as a kid, I was far more afraid of what my parents would do to me than what the criminal justice system would do - I wasn’t stupid, I knew I wouldn’t go to jail at 11. I did know that if the police brought me home I would be in SERIOUS trouble with my folks, and therefore didn’t break many laws. My friends whose parents didn’t give a damn did (and got away with) a lot more stuff than I did. As I got older and to the point where I knew my parents couldn’t do much to punish me, I had some ‘good behavior habits’ already ingrained into my personality, but I wasn’t very afraid of punishment from the law, so I did things that were illegal but wouldn’t upset or disappoint my parents TOO much. I’ve spent a few nights in jail, know it’s something I don’t like to do but something I can deal with. I definitely wouldn’t want to spend more than a few days in jail, so I don’t do anything that would put me there for that long. The legal system marginally works as a deterrant on me, but there aren’t many serious crimes I WANT to do.
One of my best friends has spent a LOT of time in jail, though, longest time in being over 60 days. He doesn’t mind it at all, actually likes it on some levels - he knows a lot of people in his small town, is pretty tough and enjoys fighting, and is a member of an ethnic group that tends to protect it’s own. He is in no more danger than he is outside of jail, probably less, he can watch cable TV, lay around in bed most of the day, hang out with friends, play dominoes, get’s fed regularly…about the only advantage his home life is that he can get sex from his wife - getting away from her and his four kids probably seems worth it sometimes.
Because of this he does pretty much whatever he wants. He hasn’t had a drivers license since he was 17 (over 8 years ago) and doesn’t need one - he rarely gets tickets anymore when he is pulled over because the cops know he will just sit off the fines. He drives drunk all the time, starts fights at the drop of a hat, pretty much CONSTANTLY gets in trouble. He basically ignores all misdemeanor laws because he has no reason not to, and I don’t think the prospect of a few years in jail would be much of a deterrant to him if he wanted to commit a felony (not that he hasn’t).
There are a LOT of people like him, and our current criminal justice system is useless against them. Sure, he will probably get put away for a long time eventually, but it could be years before it comes to that, and it may never. The government has probably spent tens of thousands of dollars on him over the years and will continue to do so.
I agree that some people need to be removed from society, but it doesn’t do much good when they get thrown right back in without any change in their behavior, and there are a lot of crimes that happen so frequently that it’s not practical to lock them all up. I think alternative punishments are something we need to seriously look into. Not just corporal punishment, though I do think there is a place for that. I think that forced labor should be used more - don’t pay for their room and board, just pick them up in the morning, make them do some boring, strenuous activity for 12 hours and then take them home. We should also start revoking rights. Make it so you can’t buy alcohol or cigarettes, or stay out past 9 PM, or live with non-related members of the opposite sex, or see your children, or drive a car. Yes, people would find ways to work around those limits, but it would be an inconvenience at least and they would constantly be reminded of the fact that bad things can happen to you when you do something wrong.
Badtz you said:
" He hasn’t had a drivers license since he was 17 (over 8 years ago) and doesn’t need one - he rarely gets tickets anymore when he is pulled over because the cops know he will just sit off the fines. He drives drunk all the time, starts
fights at the drop of a hat, pretty much CONSTANTLY gets in trouble. He basically ignores all misdemeanor laws because he has no reason not to… "
Are saying that the cops in Dallas have just given up on your friend because he’s above the law? I can’t imagine that the law enforcement there can be so pathetic as to let people drive without a license and be drunk while doing so.
If there ever was an offense worthy of corporal punishment followed by a long incarceration this would be it. I have little use for drunks and zero use for drunks who drive.
Our laws pale in comparison to what other countries do (see below), I would like to see the comparisons in drunk driving convictions and this might be a good indicator if corporal punishment works for this crime.
I personally like the last two and I am guessing that friends don’t let friends drive drunk in Bulgaria or El Salvador.
South Africa:
A 10 year prison sentence and the equivalent of a $10,000.00 fine
Turkey:
Drunk drivers are taken 20 miles outside of town by police,
and are forced to walk back under escort.
Norway:
Three weeks in jail at hard labor, one year loss of license.
Second offense within five years, license revoked for life.
Finland & Sweden:
Automatic jail for one year of hard labor.
Costa Rica:
Police remove plates from car.
Russia:
License revoked for life.
England:
One year suspension and a $250.00 fine and jail for one year.
France:
Three year loss of license, one year in jail and a $1000.00 fine.
Poland:
Jail, fine, and forced to attend political lectures.
Bulgaria:
A second conviction results in execution.
El Salvador:
Your first offense is your last---execution by firing squad.I think the discussion of effectiveness is more or less irrelevant; we know that a sizable portion of the criminal population is undeterred by prison. We definitely need to look at alternatives. Beatings and whippings are very unlikely to be less effective than prison. Now, let’s look at the other relevant issues. (1)Is beating cruel or immoral? A lot of people here seem to think it would be less cruel (as well as more effective) than imprisonment. I would tend to agree than severe but brief punishment is both more humane and more effective than prolonged but comparatively mild punishment. (Some people, of course, think that the answer is to make imprisonment both longer and harsher. These people are brutes.) Psychological studies would be needed (and have probably already been done) to determine which form of punishment would be least damaging and most effective. (2)Would beating be less costly to society? Almost certainly! I can’t think of any other relevsnt issues.
Actually, I can. I was about to hit “Submit Reply” when it occurred to me that imprisonment has several other harms that have not been mentioned. A person who is in prison cannot work or care for his or her family. There is a serious problem now of single mothers who are put in prison leaving no one to care for their children. Similarly, huge numbers of children in some communities are growing up without fathers because of the prison system. Imprisoned people are also prevented from working to earn money or contributing to society(even through taxes). If an alternative form of punishment could be effective, proportional, and avoid these problems, I’m all for it, an I can’t see how anyone could not be!
Thankyou Alan, I haven’t heard that angle of this debate before and yet it is so relevant. Is punishing the innocent an acceptable colateral result when punishing the guilty? I think not when there is an alternative!