I recently looked over an building built in the early 1900s. I was told that it would be massively expensive to install a dishwasher because I would have to bring the plumbing “up to code.” Why? As long as I am not selling the building to someone else, why do I need to change the wiring or plumbing?
How expensive might such a thing be?
Obviously it depends on where the building is, what the plumbing standards in that part of the world were in 1900, and what local law now requires.
It may well be the case that new appliances cannot be connected to the plumbing (or the electrics) unless they are up to code. And there may be good reason for this; a dishwasher may for example draw water, or drain water, at a rate greater than was envisaged in 1900, or require a greater water pressure than was provided for, so connecting it could have (a) safety implications or (b) implications for other people connected to the same plumbing system.
Or it could just be that the dishwasher won’t work well/at all unless the plumbing is up to scratch. When you were told that you would “have to” bring the plumbing up to code, was that presented as a practical necessity or a legal obligation?
It is a house in the Philadelphia area. The plumber said something about his being unwilling to do the job unless he could also bring it up to code, so as to preclude any later workman blaming him for a shoddy job.
Right, so. The plumber thinks it would be unprofessional to connect a dishwasher to 1900-level plumbing.
I’m not a plumber, so I’ve no idea how well-founded this view is. You could get a second opinion from another plumber.
There are very valid reasons why the National Building Code exists. I don’t know, however, if installation of a dishwasher is a problem or not. I would most certainly get a second opinion as to the viability of using the existing wiring and plumbing systems in the house but I can see where it’s very possible that the systems will need upgraded.
I don’t know Philadelphia’s code specifically, but IAACP. (I am a City Planner. Or was. Or sorta was, when I worked for a city.)
Building codes are designed for minimum safety. By that I mean they usually look at whatever the worst dangers were 20 or 50 years ago, whenever the code was written, looking back at whatever proven body of knowledge had already established itself then. That’s pretty minimum. But at least you probably won’t be killing yourself. At least not at the same rate as they used to.
You might reply that a dishwasher wouldn’t kill you. Probably not. But of course I’m using “kill” pretty loosely. Not meeting code could cause burst pipes, flooding, general rot and seepage. It could destroy the waste system inside the house and back sewage into the water supply. I’m sure a real plumber could figure out twenty other likely problems.
But it’s your house, you say. The possibilities of damaging the system or a neighbor’s house is low. Most of these problems would only affect you personally.
Yeah, but, you’re a liar. Everybody says they’re only affecting themselves, but how can the city believe for a minute that’s always going to be true? You can get married, have children, invite your parents to stay with you, turn rooms into a home office and hire help, or a thousand other scenarios. The city won’t have any way of knowing if you do this. It’s your legal right as a homeowner. But when your exploding dishwasher kills one of them and the lawyers hear that the city let you install it, they’ll sue everybody, starting with the city.
City codes may be badly written or thought out or not up to modern standards. They may be enforced selectively or obnoxiously or not at all. But the theory behind them is very sound and has saved lots of lives, as well as saving property, neighborhoods, livelihoods, and more. I don’t have any sympathy for someone beefing about bringing an old property up to code. I don’t want to live under 1900 standards and I don’t want them anywhere around me where I do live.
Thank you all.
My grandparents’ flat is over 100yo. My mother wants me to buy it when Grandma dies; I’ve pointed out that if I do, the price will need to take into account that the house has to be brought up to code. Mom said “but it is up to code!” “Ehr, Mom… lead pipes? Plugs that are the previous standard, only one that has been changed and accepts current jacks? Has the wiring ever been changed after being installed?” “Oh. Oh, yeah, I guess that’s bad…”
If I ever get that house, I may not move walls, but betcherass I’m putting in wires that can’t be carbon-dated.
What, you are planning on dying in this house?
Of course you are going to sell it to someone else.
And yet if you live in an area that has houses dating from 1900, you almost certainly have plenty of non-conforming houses near you, the day-to-day dangers from which are slight.
That “of course” isn’t necessarily so. I know quite a few people who have lived in the same house their whole lives (including an American coworker who was the 6th generation in her family to own that house); many more who eventually got their “permanent house”, often being one or two decades younger than Paul is now.
Codes are often fairly closely related to common sense, but do not represent the only acceptable way of doing something. It’s worth noting that it’s rarely the case that an old building is required by law to be brought “up to code”. What you need is a person qualified to look at the plumbing that would be used for the dishwasher and tell you the detail of what isn’t up to code, the implications of using it, and just what would be necessary for a safe & sound job.
IOW your original plumber’s response may have been prompted by plumbing that’s unacceptable, but may also have been motivated by a simple wish to have more work. You need an informed second opinion.
I can totally understand the plumber. This is a very typical response from an experienced successful contractor. Lots could go wrong. He can run into unforeseen problems (almost guaranteed). It is probably very hard to estimate the work, there is a possibility of increasing expense as more issues are revealed.
The main issue is likely the sanitary sewer. If the existing connection is not up to modern waste capacities replacement involves excavation of yours and city property, specialized contractors, a few days road obstruction. Expensive. If the sanitary sewer can handle it though it can be pretty simple to run a new waste line and vent. And your kitchen sink will be more functional as a decent bonus.
Modern dishwashers use much less water and have their own pumps and heaters so supply is unlikely to be an issue.
Does this imply a move from Saudi Arabia to Philly?
Aside from the hyperbole of fatal dishwasher explosions, this is an interesting view. Can a city be successfully sued because of what a resident, legally and without any contact with any city office or representative, does to his own home? Has this actually happened?
That you can find an exception to my rule does not mean it is not a fact for the vast majority of home owners.
This is obviously true, and it’s obviously a problem. City governments in the U.S. have limited powers over the interiors of homes while owners occupy them. That’s one reason for codes. Codes can be legally implemented at several points in a house’s life. To add an addition or other major structural changes, you need a city permit and a code inspection. Contractors need to follow city codes when working inside a home. Rental property can be inspected annually or when a tenant complains. Sales can be stopped if code violations are found.
Codes are a balance between giving local governments unlimited powers to invade houses and giving homeowners unlimited powers to endanger their communities. That balance usually works well and to the safety of all citizens. It’s not perfect, but nothing is.
On a side note, you want the plumbing and definitely the electric updated anyways. In the early 1900s, the only thing electricity was used for was lighting. You probably have the old knob and tube style wiring in your home. It worked well for it’s purpose, but is wholly unsuited for the host of modern electronic devices in most homes. At a minimum you will be getting tripped fuses/breakers, at worse the house will burn down.
I once bought an old house in New Hampshire that was built in the late 1800’s. I got it cheap, but it needed rewiring and replummed. Also needed the kitchen remodeled and the bathrooms remodeled. I put a lot of money into it, but years later when I sold it, it wasn’t worth more than I paid for it. Remember, old remodeled houses are still old houses.
The plumber may have looking for more work, but IME he may likely have been looking for less work; looking for a way to exit.