Why would you apologize for that? I’m not in any way new to the planet or to the World O’ Online, I assure you.
I did not attack Petsmart. I stated my opinions and experiences in regard to them. I have no interest in attacking anything or anyone.
I do realize you have a hardon for PETA. I don’t agree with some of their causes, but I think any group that advances awareness of cruelty and mistreatment of animals is basically good.
I’m not aware of the specifics of this and I don’t really want the details, but I can think of many instances where animals are better off dead than suffering or mistreated or even misunderstood. Life is not precious to me - rather, the quality of life is precious.
I really have no desire to be educated about PETA. I don’t feel a need to take a position in regard to them.
Well the Los Angeles Zoo, for example, struck me as being substandard. The biggest problem I have is how confined a lot of these animals still are, although it isn’t in cages anymore (generally). I see from this link that the LA Zoo is making efforts to create better, “more expansive spaces” for their animals.
I was there a few years ago and it looked reasonable. Additionally there was a massive construction project underway to improve the zoo. I thought they were acceptable and improving. I think that was in September 2002 that I was there. I think the elephant enclosure for one Bull elephant might have been undersized, I am trying to recall. At the time, I believe they had some African and some Asian and one mix. Does this sound correct?
Yes, and that’s just going to happen in zoos, which I think is their inherent flaw. If you or I were taken out of our homes, away from our jobs and families, and put into a cage and given nutritious food, I think we’d know that our lives had suddenly turned to crap. The last time I went to the Columbus Zoo I saw big cats pacing backand forth, back and forth, heads down, and it was clear from the paths under their feet that that’s all they’d been doing. They are used to running and killing and doing their Big Cat Job, which they now cannot do in any way.
And for what? So we can say the kiddies got a chance to see them? Hardly. Show the kids a video. So that we can say we saved a some species from becoming extinct? Well, maybe we did and maybe we didn’t, and only time will tell. And maybe that’s almost worth it, but the carnival atmosphere of a zoo with its animals in cages really depresses me, and I know I’m not alone in this. I feel for the animals. They simply cannot be as happy as they were in their own native environments.
I’d think you should, so that you know about the organization you’re quoting, and what they stand for. PETA is highly controversial, to be polite about it (a bunch of crazies, IMO, to be less polite), and I wouldn’t want people associating me with them without knowing whether I actually agree with their positions or not. Willful ignorance won’t get you far on this board.
We probably ahve different ideas about what is reasonable. I don’t think enclosures, albeit open, that are small, are appropriate for animals, especially animals such hippos, big cats, giraffes, and such.
That’s all well and good, but in America at least zoos are getting their animals from their own breeding programs or from other zoos. Since the Endangered Species Act was passed over 35 years ago it’s vanishingly unlikely that any big cat in a zoo has ever done their “Big Cat Job.” The few exceptions to this rule are animals that were seized from the illegal pet trade, although for many large mammals having been raised as a pet precludes their being accepted by a zoo. Again, these are NOT wild animals who’ve been captured as adults and imprisoned in zoos, but ones who’ve had to be removed from owners who are not qualified to keep them healthy and safe. The alternative to a zoo is either a privately owned sanctuary or more likely euthanasia.
You may not like zoos yourself but not everyone shares your view. I myself am more than happy that zoos are maintaining healthy breeding populations of exotic animals that may yet be able to be reintroduced into the wild at some later date, assuming enough suitable habitat can be secured. The reintroduction of wolves to the American West has been quite successful and is due in part to the efforts of zoos to keep the wolves from extinction. The biosphere benefits when animals that evolved to fill a specific niche are reintroduced after short sighted extermination attempts proved to be all too successful. Biodiversity is a good thing–messing with it can have unforeseen consequences and I think it’s pretty cool that we have some options should we find out in future that our own existence relies heavily on the continued existence of some other species. Probably won’t happen that way, but nice to have the option just in case.
If I was a wild animal and had the choice between a guranteed long life in a zoo that was nice but admittedly smaller than the savannah, or living in said savannah with the large chance I’d be killed for my meat, or tusks, or just for the hell of it, I’d pick the zoo.
Would you really? I’m not saying that zoos are terrible and need to be closed or that it’s cruel to the animals (I agree with others that when they’re given enough space, food, and boredom-relievers, they have it pretty good), but my mind boggles when I hear someone make this argument. If you woke up one day and discovered that you were Truman from The Truman Show, you would really choose to stay instead of take your chances in the outside world?
Ideally, there would be no zoos. They wouldn’t be necessary. They exist because of us, because we’ve made much of the world a place that a lot of species just can’t survive, and because of our curiosity and desire to safely see them up close, regardless of what they might want. It’s really very selfish of us, and I guess it bothers me when people close their eyes to that. We’re animals too, and I don’t think we’re so far removed from all the other (non-domesticated) animals on the planet that our need for freedom is solely a human trait.
Then again, Truman was pretty happy before he realized he was in a cage. Animals in zoos seem to do alright. Can’t miss what you’ve never had, right? Still, I feel bad for them, knowing what they could have had and that we’re the ones who decided that for them. I don’t know. I should probably erase this post, but I put a lot of thought into it, and I would like to hear what other people say, so I’ll put it out there.
I’m neither the OP nor a mod, but I suspect you’d get a more full set of answers if you started a new thread with this question about zoos. I suspect there are people who have opinions on zoos but wouldn’t come into a thread about Petco or Petsmart. (Supergoose, I don’t mean to sound like I’m harshing on you in particular, you just sound very interested, and the thread is suddenly a completely new thread with this discussion.)
As for bringing pets in, I do think it’s great that you’ve got your kid trained to ask, “May I pet your dog?” I’ve met too many people, kids especially but adults too, who will just pet an animal willy-nilly. This is especially frustrating during puppy training, and I’m trying to train proper greeting behaviour and they’re all saying, “Oh, she’s so cute, it’s okay.” Sure, it’s okay NOW but in six months when she weighs 50lbs, you’re going to be very pissed if she jumps on you or expects to sit in your lap! Please, help me teach her manners, and then pet her all you’d like.
However, it is true that there’s no social obligation to allow an animal to be petted, and also no obligation to be nice about saying no. That said, I think most people will find it remarkable if you choose to take your animal to a place like this, not allow it to be petted, and then are rude on top of that. Rudeness is generally remarkable, not allowing petting is not.
fifty years ago, no- zoos had much smaller areas for the animals, but now you have huge grassy fields for them most of the time. And when you see what the Africans are doing to the wildlife over there (burning down the gorillas natural habitat to make charcoal, for one of many examples) , I probably would. Also, if you’re not on the top of the food chain, you have no chance of being eaten for food. Circuses are a different story though.
Sprockets, since you’re not willing to undertake research of the group on which you base your opinion, why should someone give any regard to other research you’ve said you’ve undertaken? I’m not trying to be antagonistic, just curious as to why you have no desire to educate yourself on a subject you obviously have an interest in.
So as to avoid a total hijack, we don’t often take the dog to the pet store. However, anyone in public polite enough to ask will usually be allowed to interact with the little guy.
The example in the OP was just being a douche, and it likely spreads much further into her life than the pet store.