BritDopers (and nosy foreigners) - Leaving the EU

I don’t care about the cucumbers, bananas, pints of milk or anything else like that and I realise a lot of it is anti-EU propaganda. However, I read the link and a lot of it looks rather silly with hindsight. In fact, a lot of it looks silly anyway - “no war in Europe” is always trotted out by EU-philes but I think it’s ridiculous - the chance of another war in Europe, in the foreseeable future (say the next 50-100 years) is virtually zero whether the EU survives or not. And you can’t claim the EU is a driver of democracy - again, democracy happens in most places sooner or later anyway. In terms of spending money on developing other countries such as Ireland, Spain, Poland, Romania et al, that’s all well and good when it’s affordable, but it’s abundantly clear now that the UK should have been putting that money by for a rainy day, and presently it’s all we can do to try and keep our own economy going. So although I like to think I’m reasonably open minded, I haven’t changed my view yet.

I think it’s highly likely, yes. People, and countries, are different.

Sorry, these aren’t good enough reasons for me.

I think this is pretty hard.

First, I really dislike the way that the EU is heading. In terms of European integration, the Euro has been a disaster, as countries using the single currency need to integrate much more to address the severe problems within that currency, whilst those on the outside are now at risk of being consistently outvoted by a caucusing Eurozone. The UK and others outside the single currency need some protection, which doesn’t seem forthcoming from the rest of the EU. If the choice really is between leaving and being consistently outvoted on banking and economic matters by the likes of the French, Italians and Greeks, then I think we should leave. Hopefully, Merkel’s recent overtures to Cameron are indicative that she understands Britain’s problem, and some accommodation will be made.

Second, I think we’re seeing more and more of a power grab by Brussels over what it can (and what it should be) regulating. There seems to be no firm limit or agreement on what is a competency of Brussels, and what is a competency of national governments — it’s like death from a thousand cuts where small competencies are slowly being grabbed by Brussels, slowly centralising the whole continent. The recent debacle over olive oil containers on restaurant tables is an example. There’s absolutely no reason why this required the attention of Brussels, or co-ordinated action across the entire continent. The reasoning from bringing in the law itself was pretty weak, with very little firm evidence that a real public health/fraud problem was at hand. It was just lobbying by Southern European olive oil plantations trying to enact protectionist measures across the whole continent via the EU. Thankfully public outcry stopped this law, but other dubious laws (like limits on banker remuneration) have been welcomed with open arms.

Third, I kind of agree with Cameron that the EU needs to be much more competitive and cut back on the protectionism that plagues the organisation. Why can’t countries pick and choose which parts of the organisation they are a party to? The organisation really is turning into something that nobody really wants, and something has to give. Speaking to other Europeans I have yet to meet one who is happy with what the EU is, and what it looks set to become. It has no popular mandate, it’s bureaucratic, inefficient and adds an extra layer of government and another series of politicians.

However, I have benefited from being in the EU. I’ve lived and worked in Italy, employed as a scientist funded by the EU, making use of the right to freedom of movement throughout the Continent that the EU brings. British business undoubtedly benefits from the single market and the trade agreements that the EU can negotiate. The structural funds, pumping development money into Eastern Europe, are helping to build a middle class there which will eventually demand British goods. All of this at the moment probably is enough to make me turn a blind eye to the bad parts of the EU, so, today I’d probably vote to stay in, but can see myself changing opinion unless there’s some serious reform over the next decade.

I didn’t leave anything out, I mentioned coming back. The economy got better between 1997-2007, but it was due to greased palms and to a housing bubble in which many things were completely absurd (individual housing rather than more-efficient flats, housing built in prime agricultural, spongy soil or on sandy areas, etc.); it was artificial growth, but artificial growth which cannot be blamed on some external bogeyman, not when half the fucking country was trying to kill the fat hog. And we (both migrants and returns) often get treated like outer space aliens; who cares if we lose our right to vote for nine months for the sin of coming back? It’s not important! I know people who got accused of “lying on employment applications” because, get this, our Seguridad Social records don’t list those foreign jobs! (I hope you have an aspirin handy). A few months back my dear sister in law told me that “oh maybe people in your cohort did leave, but nobody else did; you’re the only person I know who’s worked abroad!” “in my cohort? What is my cohort, pray tell?” I gave her a list of over twelve people both of us know who worked abroad, her mouth kept getting bigger until it simply couldn’t.

Same here. I’d vote to stay for political as well as selfish reasons.

I voted “don’t care”, for what it’s worth. Even if the UK leaves the EU it will eventually have to come back in some form. For good or ill, the British economy is now built around the common market.

Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party, congratulations on being able to live and work in such a beautiful country. With the risk of coming across as argumentative, wouldn’t you have been able to work in Italy before, with a working visa? I’m assuming so, and also if your research is regarded as useful then, without the EU, funding would still have been forthcoming. Of course I don’t know any specifics regarding your situation, but I had the pleasure of working in Sicily for three months before the EU came about ('86).

WRT Eastern Europe I think everyone benefits when countries are brought out of the mire heaped on them by decades of Communist rule, and if they were to buy British I’d be overjoyed. Alas they’ll probably buy Chinese like everyone else.

Doubtful. Italian scientific research, especially in an academic context, has all but collapsed post-Berlusconi. The Italians are reliant on EU scientific funding through the FP7 framework, as well as French academic funding through INRIA and CNRS (though on a much smaller scale than European funding), to basically keep their scientists in employment.

Come on, not this myth. The UK is the seventh largest manufacturer in the world and has never left the list of top ten manufacturing nations. We produce an awful lot of things that the Chinese can’t produce: what is the Chinese answer to a Rolls Royce Trent 1000 turbofan — a piece of equipment that’s taken the best part of a century to develop? There is none.

When was the last time Rolls-Royce was profitable?

They made a profit last financial year:

Oops.

I was a bit surprised too, to be honest.

My bolding. Doesn’t that give you pause for thought? You could change your wording to post the start of the EU and it would be no less correct. I’m not stating that the EU caused Italy’s demise, because I have given no evidence to back up that statement except chronology. I’m no scientist but I do know about causation and correlation.

As to your second paragraph; I don’t doubt that the UK could still sell RR engines outside of the EU, in fact it does (Air New Zealand purchased the first in 2004). We live in a global market, as well as the EU, and we’re still able to buy Japanese goods (and sell them RR engines) without too much trouble. Cheap solar panels, maybe not for so much longer.

IOW I’m still trying to grasp how the EU is benefitting the UK? It’s very easy to read how it strangles our productivity through unneeded regulations and ‘red tape’, but the benefits we are given seem to be more ethereal. I haven’t a personal gripe against being in a common market or having closer relations with our neighbours but I fail to see how being this closely tied to them does anything but cause harm?

Note the preceding phrase: post-Berlusconi. I suspect that has a great deal more to do with Italian science than the EU.

Anyway, selling aero engines to New Zealand is fine (purchased the first what? Rolls has been making engines for civil airlines for quite a bit longer than that), but the fact that you can sell something somewhere doesn’t mean that market can entirely replace another one. You make it sound like demand for RR engines massively outstrips supply, and they are being sold to European customers because it’s most profitable. It’s not like that; there aren’t a hundred countries clamoring to buy Rolls-Royce engines. If they can’t be sold in the EU at a competitive price, the European customers will just buy from EuroJet or MTU or GE or whoever, even if RR has a better product.