I have - in theory - nothing against cyclists. In theory, I’m all in favour of a means of transport that doesn’t consume fossil fuels, and gives people much-needed exercise … Actually, come to think of it, in practice I am, too, just in my case it’s called “walking”.
Trouble is, walking in Oxford, I am constantly up against cyclists who disregard the rules of the road, their own safety, and (more importantly - to me) mine. And my opinion of cyclists is, inevitably, based on my actual experience of them. (The whole business of keeping count started out as a deliberate attempt - on my part - to check my opinions, objectively: “They can’t all be anti-social arseholes,” I thought to myself, “perhaps if I count the ones who behave responsibly, it’ll be clear that they’re in the majority.” So I did. And they weren’t … frankly, after the score remained in single figures after a couple of months, keeping the count became more of a private joke than anything else.)
All I can say is, people who think irresponsible cyclists aren’t a genuine problem … well, they should walk a mile in my shoes, is all. (And, by definition, I’ve got nothing against responsible cyclists. But if those are in the majority where you are, can you please find out what makes them that way, bottle it, and send it over here?)
With the exception of the last sentence, that’s a spurious arguement - and here’s why… clearly a cyclist causes less wear and tear on infrastructure (by orders of magnitude) than vehicles do. Yet just as clearly, almost all adult cyclists are also car owners whose cars are NOT being used when they are riding their bikes instead. By extension, probably 98% of adult cyclists are contributing to road infrastructure through a mixture of income tax and road registration licensing - it’s just that they’re not using their cars as much as YOU do. Further, the issue here is NOT wear and tear on the roads. It’s not even the fact that cyclists run red lights. The issue here is your impatience, and the fact that YOU can’t go as fast as YOU would like while other people in other lanes are going as fast as THEY would like. Don’t kid yourself bucko - you might think you’re making a cognitive arguement for why cyclists are a societal problem, but the reality is that you’re doing a classic trap known in psychology as “projecting your aggression onto someone else”.
You’re lying to all of us (and yourself) if you’re trying to tell us that you can drive anywhere in Sydney in peak hour above an average of say 15 mph on any given major arterial road.
Give me just 3 hours on any given intersection, and I will take literally hundreds of photos of drivers talking on mobile phones, reading maps while driving, failing to indicate, chopping other drivers off, tailgating, you name it - breaking the law left right and centre. That a cyclist runs a red light is wrong, no doubt. Overall, however, given that vehicles are innately more dangerous to other road users, let alone other pedestrians and cyclists, it’s safe to say that the poor driving habits of vehicle owners is an infinitely greater societal problem than a cyclist who holds you up by 30 seconds on your drive home.
I still think the majority of cyclists I encounter on an average day (and I’m sorry, Mr Alpen, but lacking a national survey of the habits of British cyclist all I can go by is personal experience) are inconsiderate arseholes.
Riding a bike around London comes down to having a big set of the old brass danglers, pure and simple. If you don’t ride aggressively you’ll get hurt. Running redlights is indefensible, mind, but riding you’re bike like its an eighteen-wheeler is what is takes to progress around the nation’s capital in an orderly and safe fashion.
The British have the safest roads in Europe, and we still can’t drive for shit. Tailgating, undertaking, refusal to be held up for ten fucking seconds in one’s daily commute, using your car in an aggressive and dangerous manner that belies the fact you’re a complete pussy and general discourtesy rule the day. Cyclists are the very last group of road users that need to be criticised.
From a logic point of view, I can’t follow this. How is it that a pedestrian would have a reason to mingle with cyclists in such a way that you feel they’re all inconsiderate arseholes? Are you walking on the road? Are you walking on bike paths where cyclists are flying past you at great speed? Or are you using footpaths where cyclists are forced to share those footpaths with you becase the roads are too dangerous?
If you’re gonna slam someone in life because of their lifestyle choice, at least have a better reason than it’s because “you don’t like them”.
Could you possibly be any more full of shit? No, didn’t think so.
How much more fucking straw man can you cram into the above? While I’m busy trying to prove I’m not an aggressive driver (you have seem me drive? No.), you are left to spew forth your nonsense. Other examples of your underhanded childlike debating technique:
You rabbit on about cyclists causing minimal wear and tear and rail against my claim that they should pay the same as car drivers. Guess what? I DIDN’T SAY THAT. I didn’t give an amount. The registration and licence fees should be nominal, but the fines should be substantial (but still probably lower than for motorists). The testing to get the licence should be as hard as a car licence test,
and that licence should be taken away for multiple offences, just like a car licence can be. Riding a bicycle on a public road is not a right - a magistrate should be able to prevent individuals from doing so. At the moment, that is not possible.
You want equal rights? Then equal responsibility comes with it. Play by the fucking rules already.
You claim I’d be driving slowly anyway in Sydney traffic. You’re talking averages. Well, now I’ll be travelling even slower, and so will the line of cars behind me - just to satisfy one person. Are we aggressive maniacs with small penises and chips on our shoulders? Or are we just tired commuters who don’t want to get home any slower than we already do?
Most cyclists drive cars too, you say.
So? Pay for both. No free lunch.
Most cyclists pay throiugh income and indirect taxes.
Uh huh. Motorists do too.
Give you three hours at an intersection… blah blah blah
This is barely worth answering. Give me a sample of a hundred motorists and a hundred cyclists, and I might listen to you ('cept you’d not like what you’d see, so I doubt you’d share the results with me).
You are commiting the classic trap known in psychology as “being a dickhead”.
The issue here is cowardice, and taking cheap shots at people who can’t defend themselves because, hey, if things go pear shaped, you can always drive off and give 'em the finger, huh?
As I noted in my earlier post, he who hasn’t sinned can cast the first stone, thank you very much. Just sit on any intersection and watch in amazement at vehicle drivers. You’ll see mothers hitting their kids in their back seats as they ripping through crowded traffic. People going nuts with road rage. Idiots typing in text messages on their mobile phones. Other people changing CD’s in their radio and not looking where they’re going. All of these people, every single one of 'em put a cyclist’s life in danger way way waaaaaay out of proportion to the scratch on the car’s paintjob that a collision between the two is gonna cause.
Most car/bike altercations happen in heavy traffic. Bikes can weave between cars, and if you flip the bird at one, he’s likely to catch you at the next light. Cyclists have been known to punch/ spit at drivers through the open window, to key cars as they ride past, and they then ride off and are away before the drivers can even get their seatbelt off to pursue on foot.
If it was about cowardice, I’d be going after the pedestrians, no?
And don’t even get me started on Sydney CBD bicycle couriers. They are aggressive and fearless. They have killed pedestrians.
FTR, I’m not holding up motorists as paragons of virtue here. If this was an anti-motorist rant, I’d be right with you.
(I catch the train mostly these days)
More of that “projection” I see. Someone needs a hug today, huh?
See, now THIS is where your logic falls down. It’s your choice to drive to work, not the cyclists. It’s your choice to live where you live, not the cyclists. It’s your choice to not use public transport, not the cyclists. It’s your choice to drive a car, not the cyclists. It’s your choice to drive the route that you drive on your way home, not the cyclists. And yet, somehow, the cyclist is to blame for inconveniencing your choices? I see you’ve later added in a more recent post that you mostly take the train nowadays, but I perceive that as being a “cover your bets” post.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. The cyclist shares the road with you because he has to. Nobody who wants to live an uninjured life would willingly share a road with angry vehicle drivers unless the road system absolutely demanded it. By extension, if you’re going to argue that cyclists should pay for road infrastructure, then they should also have totally safe off-lane cycling lanes everywhere that cyclists should reasonably be allowed to commute. But they don’t do they? Time and time again cyclists are forced to share 18 inches of terrifying rubbish strewn gutters while massive trucks race past which are gonna kill 'em - at any second - because there simply aren’t safe alternatives to ride on elsewhere.
Hence, if you’re gonna argue that cyclists should pay road rego, then you should also concede that cyclists should have safer roads to ride on than the current situation forces them to ride on.
The issue here is that seemingly, someone else (namely a cyclist) is inconveniencing your choices, and you’re upset about that. You can mask it any way you want, but deep down, that’s what’s at play here. And the real shame about is this… in the history of mankind, never has a machine more efficient than a biycle been invented as a means of transport. Nothing beats it. It’s a travesty that such an efficient means of transportation is so marginalised in modern society in favour of auomobiles.
And where does it stop? Are you going to start charging pedestrians a road infrastructure fee just to walk on a footpath? Coz that’s where your logic is gong here. Are you gonna start charging people the right to ride bikeways through public parks too? Your position is being driven by emotion at the moment, not by logic. The bottom line is this… if the road system didn’t force cyclists and vehicles to mingle, then almost certainly, cyclists whould choose the safer route. And most likely, you wouldn’t give a shit whether they were licensed or not.
Accordingly, the assertion that cyclists are dangerous is a disingenous arguement. It takes two to tango, and if there were no vehicles on the road at all, cycling accidents would be almost negligible. The problem is, people like their cars… and people in cars don’t like to be inconvenienced because that’s what a car is - a convenience. If it wasn’t so convenient, more people would ride to work, huh?
Speaking solely for myself, a non-driver and mainly pedestrian (and some-time cyclist myself), I can assure you that I’m simply trying to cross the road at designated crossing points, and that I have learnt from experience that if I see a cyclist coming, I simply cannot assume that said cyclist will stop, even if I have right-of-way. I’m really sorry if this bugs you, but I can only anecdotally back up those posters who have observed that you really can’t rely on cyclists to obey the rules of the road in the same way you can on motorists (at least, those rules pertaining to pedestrians). If you want to start a thread about how motorists are inconsiderate to cyclists, I’ll be right behind you, but it doesn’t change the fact that at least in London (where I walk), most cyclists are absolute cunts when it comes to being considerate to pedestrians. This tu quoque shit misses the point entirely.
I realise that if you are a considerate cyclist, then your perception will be that most cyclist actions are fine; but that’s because most of the cyclist actions you observe are your own. I’m quite comfortable asserting that the simple majority of cyclists just don’t give a shit, and this is even borne out in a sample of my own friends; college-educated professionals to a man. They will not only happily run red lights, but will justify doing so in exactly the terms I described above. A substantial number of cyclists just don’t think the rules apply to them, for God-knows-what obscure distinction that makes them magically immune. I’m really sorry if this pisses you off, but it’s the truth.
I don’t think being an inconsiderate twat is a “lifestyle choice”. If you’re not an inconsiderate twat, you should not be offended by pit threads abusing inconsiderate twats. Lots and lots of cyclists run red lights, and that’s being an inconsiderate twat. Fuck 'em. They can obey the rules of the fucking road, or fucking walk. I’m sick of dodging the tossers.
I actually agree with some of that. The level of claptrap, whilst still there, has gone down.
Clyclists should NOT have the same rights as cars. Equal maybe, but not the same. I support, as you know, licencing and rego for bikes. I also support cities having decent cycleways. Before you cheer about this too much, in areas where there is an alternate cycleway route, bikes should be banned from major arterial roads - at least in peak hour.
Must be said though, that I’m not hedging me bets with the train comment. Just trying to say that I have been on all sides of this equation - which is exactly the trap you wanted me to fall into with your “aggressive driver” argument, so more fool me - now I’m trying to defend myself and being pushed away from the issue at hand.
I catch the train because at the moment I have to (my wife has the car). When I DO drive, a lot of cyclists piss me off and I in no way back down from that statement, train or no.
Right. It must be really the pedestrian’s fault. Or the motorists. Or the government’s. Certainly not the cyclists, because they are all angels.
I come into contact with the cyclists when walking in a variety of ways: when crossing the street a cyclist will run the red light and nearly run me over in the crosswalk when I have the light. Or the traffic in the street is backed up and instead of staying in the street like everyone else, they’ll jump up on the sidewalk to bypass it. Or, they’re just too chickenshit to get in the road - even if there’s adequate room for them - and jump up on the sidewalk and barrel through pedestrians.
Cyclists are, IMO, more often than not, the biggest dicks and the biggest hazards on the roadways/sidewalks. And this comes from someone who uses his bike to get around the city quite frequently.
Well that’s just plain wrong. Just like a pedestrian walking up to another pedestrian and deliberately shoving them out of the way. It’s just plain wrong and I don’t think anyone here would try to argue otherwise.
Now this second quote is far more subjective. Consider if you will, a 3 kilometer stretch of roadway in my home town. It’s a two-way street, but cars are only allowed to drive in the northerly direction, while bikes are allowed to ride in the southerly direction. The street has large sidewalks on either side of the street, but pedestrians insist on walking three abreast hogging the bike lane. Who is inconsiderate at this point? Other times, you’ll get mothers walking their pram on the road in the bike lane, wearing their walkman turned up loud, and we’ll be flying up behind in race training, totally legally, and we’ll be screaming out loud as we can “Riders! Riders! Riders!” and this typical mother will be oblivious to the world - utterly unaware of the impending danger she’s placed her baby in by walking on the road ad not being able to hear anything from behind.
So, it’s not one way traffic here. Car drivers are NOT inherently more polite or considerate than cyclists. And cyclists are NOT inherently more polite or considerate than pedestrians. Given the opportunity, all groups (being human) will demonstrate selfishness and self-absorption.
The trick, it seems to me, is to physically provide greater means of keeping these groups separate. Oh, and also, if I were President of the Internet, I’d be pumping out TV advertisements all the time reminding people of various road rules. I’d wager quite a decent bet that most long term vehicle drivers would NOT pass a recent “theory test” on the current rules of the road.
I know. The problem isn’t that people are saying that it’s OK to do that. And responsible bikers like you and Trunk would be the first to condemn it, no question. My point, and the point of many other pedestrian Dopers, is that considerate, intelligent bikers like you and Trunk are in the minority of your grouping. Or at least, not like the majority of the bikers we’ve come in contact with.
I’m sure you’re right. But, like I said, it’s just IMO. Which comes from my experience both as a biker myself and a pedestrian. I’ve simply had more trouble with bikers as a pedestrian than I have with pedestrians when I’m biking. But, I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t do nearly as much biking as you so it could just be a sample size thing.
I would love that. Good, solid bike lines that cars aren’t allowed to park in would be a major boon to urban areas and make everyone happier.
In many areas, adding bike lanes is simply impossible. When you’ve already got a town built up, there really isn’t any space. What are you going to do, reduce the sidewalk by a few feet in width? Even some highways wouldn’t be able to be changed. I’m living in Austin, Texas, and driving on I-35 at some stages there is simply no room to put a bike lane.
I live in Philadelphia and I can think of a dozen deliberate runnings of red light by cars just today. Of course, they weren’t ‘really red’. just ‘sort of red’. The light was yellow just a moment ago and they only had four lanes to cross.
My most major accident was with one of these pricks. This listing does not inclide those who jump red lights and are half-way through the intersection by the time it turns green. This is especially for those drivers who come up on the side of the main line of traffic in hope of jumping off in time before the first driver at the light. Quite a common habit. I’m sure both types of runners must meet from time to time, just not as often as I might like.
While I personally obey the lights I can see those who do not. However, the VAST MAJORITY of light running cyclist wait until the intersection is clear before crossing. Now, which is the more dangerous act? The ones of the drivers I described above or the actions of the cyclists? Hint: Guess which one weighs more and has all them horseypowers.
Unless your laws are different is IS HIS RIGHT. Deal. If you have multiple lanes
Then I would advise remaining in the faster lane. This is not rocket science. It sounds like you enjoy the problem so that you can complain.
I don’t know how things are in Australia, but here in America I already pay for the roads I sue in the form of property taxes. Those drivers who claim that the gas tac or liscensing fees pay for the roads are living in a fantsy land. Don’t tell me I need to pay more for the things I already use, especially when I am restricted from using many roads as it is.
And fuck you too. I have said it before and I will say it again. While some drivers may complain about the antics of cyclists slowing them down they failt o realise that the average bike comuter (like me) could FILL THE FUCKING PIT WITH THREAD ABOUT THE ANTICS OF DRIVERS whose ignorance, mailce, and other malignments can make my day a fucking hell.
Here’s an thought: Has the a passenger on a bike every thrown objects at you just for kicks? Objects that could cost you your life if they connected? Has a car ever blasted his horn at you for merely obeying a red light? Does the thought that anyone can intentionally kill you without a single consquence fom the law ever come up in your driving? Have other drivers, 100 feet behind you, ever blasted their horns at you for not staying in a certain ghetto lane even when said lane is occupied by a car, several debris, or other situations that render it unusable?
Never mind answering. I always know it is easier to blame all the cyclists.
Cyclist here. And guilty as charged. I’ll come to a red light and if there is no traffic I’ll go. Don’t do that in my car. If I have a good view at a stop sign and see that there is no traffic I’ll slow a bit but roll right through. I stop completely in my car.
Does this make me a dickwad?
Maybe. But I’ll second the motion that a thread on the antics of malicious and negligent drivers who put my life at risk just for the fuckin’ hell of it would fill this Pit and then some.
Drivers don’t consider me deserving of being on the road or of any of the protections thereof. I don’t get to enjoy the protections of traffic law, so excuuuuuuse me if I take minor liberties (without endangering safety) with them.