Brontosaurus

Being new to this place let me first say what a wonderful site it is. Now that the flattery is out of the way I must attempt to correct one of the columns I just read. In “Did dinosaurs have a separate brain in their behinds?” both Ruth and Cecil talk about whether the Brontosaurus had two brains. I am sorry to disappoint the readers, much as my students are disappointed when they hear the news, there is no Brontosaurus. The dinosaur that was called Brontosaurus was in fact an amalgamation of the body of an Apatosaurus and the head of a Camarasaurus.

So the question should have been did the Apatosaurus have two brains.

Yours in Paleontology,

GeoWorld

Did dinosaurs have a separate brain in their behinds?

I’m afraid Wikkit isn’t a dinosaur.

The Apatosaurus, on the other hand, is.
Oh, and generally things like this go in the Comments on Cecil’s Columns Forum, for future reference.

Well, if you think your students are disappointed, just think how Emily and Charlotte must feel!
:smiley:

And Des, your link seems to go to an argument about cricket wickets, not double-brained dinos.:confused:

So what’s the problem geoworld?

Are you saying “No, it wasn’t the Brontosaurus that didn’t have two brains, it was actually the Apatosaurus the didn’t have two brains?”

Or what, exactly?

Mea Culpa. Pasted the wrong link.

I’d like to register my complaint about the whole Brontosaurus/Apatasaurus deal.
It is true that the Brontosaurus name was already used, and incorrectly appropriated. In an unrelated detail, it’s true that they got the head wrong, too. Considering the wild and wooly history of dino hunting and claims in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, I’m not surprised. But the true Brontosaurus and the true Apatasaurus aren’t all that different, and the name change isn’t likely to cause confusion among experts, so why make a big deal about it? Why insist that “Brontosaurus” isn’t the right name?

There are too many parallel cases where the same thing has happened (names incorrectly applied, or proper notice of prior naming not being noted), but we don’t change those names. Case in point: “Platypus”. Apparently the name had already been used for a beetle, so the “proper” name for the Australian monotreme is something else entirely – a name that’s so obscure, I can’t remember it. And how about the Dolphin/Mahi-Mahi confusion? Nobody ever claims that “Mahi Mahi is the proper name” – they just use it without comment. For that matter, how about “Styrofoam”. In the plastics industry, Styrofoam is not the light and pebbly plastic foam that hot-beverage cups are made of, but something else entirely. Yet packages still routinely are labeled “styrofoam” for those cups.

So howcum they always make the big deal about “brontosaurus” being the “incorrect” name. Let the kids call it a Brontosaurus.

Are you saying “No, it wasn’t the Brontosaurus that didn’t have two brains, it was actually the Apatosaurus the didn’t have two brains?”
Exactly.

So howcum they always make the big deal about “brontosaurus” being the “incorrect” name. Let the kids call it a Brontosaurus.

The problem with that is Marine Biologists refer to “dolphins” as dolphins. Paleontoloists do not refer to Apatosaurus as Brontosaurus.

Yeah, but plastics professionals don’t refer to “styrofoam” as Styrofoam, either. I say let “Brontosaurus” stand.

geoworld, have you ever read Bully for Brontosaurus, by Stephen Jay Gould?

In agreement with CalMeachem, my take on the issue can be found in this thread. Although I just noticed that I had misspelled “nomenclature” in my post there…

Also, keep in mind, as I have also pointed out elsewhere (though I don’t remember where), Brontosaurus remains a junior subjective synonym for Apatosaurus. This means that the name Brontosaurus is not available for future use, since it’s still somewhat “attached” to Apatosaurus excelsis, and that future examinations could reveal that A. excelsis is actually not an Apatosaurus specimen. In such a case, the A. excelsis specimen would revert to Brontosaurus excelsis.

This is one of my pet peeves. Apparently people like to correct each other so much that they will take any opportunity…

We call dogs “dogs”. It is not incorrect if you fail to call them canis domesticus (or whatever).

Likewise, why do some people now insist on the spelling “Neandertal” instead of “Neanderthal”, with the corresponding pronunciation (nee-ann-der-tall, versus nee-ann-der-tholl)? “Neanderthal” has been an English word for a hundred years, why is it suddenly incorrect? Anyway, nee-ann-der-tall is incorrect in any language: the correct German pronunciation would be nay-ahn-dair-tall.

These are examples of shibboleths. Their real intent is to distinuish those “in the know” from the hoi polloi. My advice is to use Brontosaurus and Neanderthal proudly.

You usually won’t find it referred to as “Dorado,” either - but maybe you should.

I think the appelation “Mahi-Mahi” is solely for commercial purposes. If you wonder why, ponder the phrase “Dolphin-Safe Tuna.”

Isn’t “Styrofoam” the registered trademark of the Dow Chemical Corporation? Perhaps it’s use is so much like “I need a Kleenex” or “Could you Xerox that for me?”

I’m fine with that. :wink:

Darwin’s Finch basically covered the synonymy – with this caveat: the official scientific name of an animal is assigned using rules devised by an international commission of zoologists (link to this in another active GQ thread), with the idea of fairness uppermost. And the principal rule, with caveats discussed in “Bully for Brontosaurus,” is this: The man who first describes the creature in the proper zoological/paleontological monograph form, giving the characteristics that distinguish it from other similar forms, is the man who has the right to name the critter. In the case of Brontosaurus, a description of a fragmentary Apatosaurus was published first – so that name stands, in the absence of an extraordinary ruling by the commission.

You can call it whatever you like, including “that bleeping big thing” if you so choose. But the official Linnaean nomenclature is the one first given it, which is Apatosaurus. But just as we usually say “grizzly bear” instead of Ursus horribilis, there’s no reason why the English vernacular term for Apatosaurus cannot be “Brontosaurus.”

Minor question for palaeo. geeks: What’s the status of Brontosaurus ajax? If it were discovered to be a separate genus from Apatosaurus, would it retain the right to use Brontosaurus, which it was first named as, or would that name remain with the type B. excelsis (=A. excelsis) specimen and a third name be required for ajax?

Details: “platypus” = Ornithorhynchus anatinus

In a reform of German orthography, words containing “-th-” (which is sounded as /t/) dropped the ‘h’ and this was done for the Neander Valley (t(h)al) where the type Neandertal specimen was found. However, again owing to the rule of priority in zoology and paleontology, the hominid named after that is either Homo neanderthalensis or H. sapiens neanderthalensis, depending on whether it’s a separate species or a subspecies of H. sapiens – in either case, the trivial or subspecific name retains the “th” because that is what it was originally named.

Styrofoam, by the way, is a trademarked trade name, I believe by Dow Chemical, for their foamed polystyrene product. Nobody has ever drunk out of a Styrofoam cup, because that company doesn’t make them. A polystyrene-foam cup, yes, but not a Styrofoam one.

FriendRob lamented:

Since hoi is Greek for “the” ( nominative singular), it’s just hoi polloi, not ‘the hoi polloi’.
:wink:

Off to C on CC.

While each of these certainly can be used as shibboleths (as geoworld has demonstrated), there is nothing in the use of either that requires them to be so used. I generally use Apatosaurus and Neandertal (and H. sapiens neanderthalensis if it comes up), but I would never rebuke someone who used the other forms.

TalkOrigins.org addresses the Neander Valley discovery on this page.

Jabba, you’re really going to rile up his antipedantic instincts, if you keep that up–although I guess we can cut you some slack since you didn’t point out his failure to italicize the phrase. :wink: )

Do Paleontoloists (what???) have two brains?
Only if there are four of them… :wink:
<Drumroll thingie, which I don’t remember how to do.>
Welcome, geoworld, to the SDMB.
Peace,
mangeorge

Brontosaurus ajax” was’t first named as Brontosaurus, and is in fact the type species of Apatosaurus. Apatosaurus ajax will always belong to the genus Apatosaurus, and cannot be discovered to be a seperate genus from itself.